Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 4th October 2020, 04:40 AM   #1
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default British lionhead dragoon officer 4 slot hilt

This ivory grip lion head officers sword appears to be for light dragoons officer of c.1770. The four slot guard was well established at this time with its apparent advent in c. 1760s, and light dragoon troopers had this type guard with some having two branches, iron, and tall olive pommel.

There are no markings on the montmorency type cavalry blade, similar to other blades of light dragoon swords of this period.
The only visible marking is deeply stamped READ on the hilt.
Read may apply to several cutler/outfitters in Dublin around 1770.

The most likely would be John Read, at 4 Parliament St. Dublin whose brother Edward was apprentice there as well . (as per Annis & May, 1970. p.331).

These lion head pommels were well known around this time and are known also on other hangers etc.
Attached Images
  
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2020, 05:02 PM   #2
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 386
Default

Jim that's a wonderful sword, can you post more photos?
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2020, 09:41 PM   #3
Bryce
Member
 
Bryce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 173
Default

G'day Jim,
Is that something inscribed on the blade?
Cheers,
Bryce
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2020, 06:09 AM   #4
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Thanks guys!
Yes, it is a capital F near the edge.........a 3 near the back. ??????
The blade is 37 3/4 "
I will get pics and more tomorrow.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2020, 01:59 AM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Here are more photos of this British officers lionhead dragoon sword, which appears to have been retailed by Read, a cutler in Dublin c. 1770.
I have added another light dragoon sword of the four slot category but with two guard branches, also of c. 1770 for comparison.

I have added photo of the F and 3 which are seen on the blade parallel near back and edge.

The light dragoon is unmarked and with a German montmorency section blade of 35.5", and iron hilt.

The illustration from "London Silver Hilted Swords" (Leslie Southwick, 2001, plate 8) is of of a similar hilt style, lionhead c.1775 by Willian Kinman and the blade from Drury (Birmingham cutler). This illustrates the lionhead pommel style hilts popular in 1770s.
Attached Images
     
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2020, 08:09 PM   #6
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 386
Default

Jim those are two very good swords having style and function.
Two similar swords of mine pictured.
Attached Images
  
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2020, 02:46 PM   #7
E.B. Erickson
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 61
Default

NO WAY!!! Jim, I used to own that sword back in the mid 1970s before you and I met. I purchased it from Flayderman's, held on to it for a few years, then traded it back to Flayderman for something I found more attractive. My main reason I did not keep that sword is that I suspect strongly that this hilt originally had a hanger blade. Look at how small the hilt is compared to the length of the blade. And it's obviously been taken apart -- where's the capstan?

However, still a nice sword, and I kind of wish I still owned it!

--ElJay
E.B. Erickson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2020, 05:57 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Ahah! Now it comes back!!! Its been a LONG time Eljay and great memories.
I could not recall the details of that 'switcheroo' but now I remember. It was that you and I bought the same brass hilt dragoon sword at the same time inadvertently and Flayderman was totally embarrasssd (I had been making payments on it when it had already been sold to you).
The BEST thing out of the whole mess was I got to meet you! and we began the collaboration in collecting British patterns.

In the ensuing dealing I bought this lion head and I think two other swords from him.

I see what you mean about probable remount and in Neumann, they show these lion heads on some hangers of the period. I now recall that you had traded it back to Flayderman and I ended up buying it from him. There was a LOT of confusion in that series of deals.

Will, beautiful examples!!!! Thank you for sharing them and really helping with the perspective here.

I am puzzled by why it would be remounted with this very long blade. The dragoon blades of this time were quite long (I had one with a 40" blade). Would READ have been the cutler who remounted it? or perhaps the hilt (as a hanger?) was his. Lots of questions in the working life of these.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.