When in India "died" wootz?

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 06:52 PM

To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential.
Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 08:04 PM

I fully agree: wootz production in India "died" sometimes between 1850-1899 .
That was said multiple times before. Shall we go in the middle , agree on June 30, 1874 and leave it like that?

Unless, of course, notarized letters of eye witnesses of actual forging can be presented:-) Could, would and should have no evidentiary value.

Taking into account that most of Central Asian wootz blades were of obvious Persian manufacture, that several informers mention Persian origin of wootz CA blades, and that, AFAIK, there is no well-documented evidence of wootz production there, aside of Ann Feuerbach's finding of ancient crucibles, the continuation of wootz production in the Khanates and in Afghanistan at the above-mentioned period is not proven.

Continuing this discussion is akin to a sandbox argument who would win in a wrestling match : a whale or an elephant?

Count me out:-)))))

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 08:26 PM

The fact that someone has not yet proved the fact of wootz steel production in the late 19th century in Central Asia and Afghanistan, does not mean that it was not. There is growing evidence to prove that at the end of the 19th century in this region produced of wootz weapons .

But, of course, can believe the old dogmas

Of course it is easier than most to analyze and carry out research)))))

So I think really, to continue the discussion does not make sense.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 10:00 PM

Yup, I am into old dogmas of factual evidence.
Please continue your "research" and enlighten us with your "discoveries" when they are ripe enough for informed discussion.
BTW, how is your theory on dating Afghani weapons by the presence or absence of brass elements? Still working on it? I am still intrigued by it.

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yup, I am into old dogmas of factual evidence.
Please continue your "research" and enlighten us with your "discoveries" when they are ripe enough for informed discussion.
BTW, how is your theory on dating Afghani weapons by the presence or absence of brass elements? Still working on it? I am still intrigued by it.

Do not worry. Once an article is finally ready, I will introduce it in English.

And you continue to hold on to the old "information", although as it turns out that often "It’s still all up in the air"

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2016, 11:19 PM

This thread is so 'SHAVER KOOL' !!!!!

Yawn!

Rick · 18th April 2016, 02:24 AM

The above posts were deleted because they were beneath the level of discourse expected and accepted here.
Just stop.

ariel · 22nd November 2020, 03:44 AM

After so many years, just an offer of a pleasant read.

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.ne...OHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

If anybody knows all that had ever been written about wootz and is capable of understanding the intricacies of the topic,- it is unquestionably Ann Feuerbach.
A very short, understandable article about history of wootz research, the search for its composition ( alloy of iron and carbon) that was known at least 20 years before Anosov who is customarily credited for it, and other piquant and not well-known details, areas of uncertainty etc, - in short: read it!
I enjoyed it enormously, and so will you.

17th April 2016, 06:52 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential. Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

17th April 2016, 08:04 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree: wootz production in India "died" sometimes between 1850-1899 . That was said multiple times before. Shall we go in the middle , agree on June 30, 1874 and leave it like that? Unless, of course, notarized letters of eye witnesses of actual forging can be presented:-) Could, would and should have no evidentiary value. Taking into account that most of Central Asian wootz blades were of obvious Persian manufacture, that several informers mention Persian origin of wootz CA blades, and that, AFAIK, there is no well-documented evidence of wootz production there, aside of Ann Feuerbach's finding of ancient crucibles, the continuation of wootz production in the Khanates and in Afghanistan at the above-mentioned period is not proven. Continuing this discussion is akin to a sandbox argument who would win in a wrestling match : a whale or an elephant? Count me out:-)))))

17th April 2016, 08:26 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	The fact that someone has not yet proved the fact of wootz steel production in the late 19th century in Central Asia and Afghanistan, does not mean that it was not. There is growing evidence to prove that at the end of the 19th century in this region produced of wootz weapons . But, of course, can believe the old dogmas Of course it is easier than most to analyze and carry out research))))) So I think really, to continue the discussion does not make sense.

17th April 2016, 10:00 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yup, I am into old dogmas of factual evidence. Please continue your "research" and enlighten us with your "discoveries" when they are ripe enough for informed discussion. BTW, how is your theory on dating Afghani weapons by the presence or absence of brass elements? Still working on it? I am still intrigued by it.

17th April 2016, 11:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	This thread is so 'SHAVER KOOL' !!!!! Yawn!

18th April 2016, 02:24 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	The above posts were deleted because they were beneath the level of discourse expected and accepted here. Just stop.

22nd November 2020, 03:44 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	After so many years, just an offer of a pleasant read. https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.ne...OHF5GGSLRBV4ZA If anybody knows all that had ever been written about wootz and is capable of understanding the intricacies of the topic,- it is unquestionably Ann Feuerbach. A very short, understandable article about history of wootz research, the search for its composition ( alloy of iron and carbon) that was known at least 20 years before Anosov who is customarily credited for it, and other piquant and not well-known details, areas of uncertainty etc, - in short: read it! I enjoyed it enormously, and so will you.