My first antique blade, help with ID?

Will M · 25th July 2020, 04:09 AM

I would think the handle is as much as 70 years old. There is a modern vise mark on the blade ricasso someone used to assemble the grip to the blade.
The blade is very interesting and am waiting for it to be identified..

M ELEY · 25th July 2020, 05:39 AM

To me, it appears to be what you indicated. A hunting knife made from a cut-down German sword. This was not an uncommon event at all. I have a British naval dirk ca. 1800 with an old sword cut-down blade. The honey yellow antler seems to possess age, as does the guard. "Eye-shaped" or diamond guards like the one on yours seemed to pop up in the second quarter of the 19th century and of course is a pattern still seen today. I would place it pre-1900 based on patina and styling, American side-knife or hunting dagger. Knives like these were seen on the American frontier, carried by Confederate soldiers as side knives (NOT bowie knives!). A general search of the internet will find some close comparisons. I'm not at home right now, but there's a pic of a knife nearly exact to yours in one of my books at home. You have a very interesting piece there!
Mark

AUhills79 · 25th July 2020, 12:58 PM

Thanks for all the replies, really interesting stuff! This knife would certainly have a story to tell if it could talk and I believe it still has more to say. You can see it has been used quite a bit after it was re-hilted because the stag horn has been worn down and marked up from constant handling. Interested in hearing more opinions on the date of this as it seems everyone I've talked to has a different idea on when this was paired with the blade though it does most closely resemble the confederate side-knifes M ELEY mentioned, especially the guard. Also very much interested on when the original blade was produced, it's original purpose, how it would have looked, and when it was likely broken and salvaged. I'll pull it out again today and get a better close-up of the makers mark too.

Also I've been doing some more research on the symbols and found their origins all the way back in medieval times during the crusades. I've attached a couple images for reference. Surely the blade wouldn't date back to the crusades though, correct?

AUhills79 · 25th July 2020, 02:08 PM

Here are the last three things left to translate.

1: The maker's mark.
2: The diamond shape symbol made with 9 dots.
3: The "xxx" or ">>>" symbol.

If these can be figured out I suspect that will help put an accurate date on the blade. I suspect there is only a limited slot in the timeline where all the symbols on this blade would of been used together.

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2020, 03:22 PM

This is a fascinating knife! and as Mark has well noted, the blade is from a cut down repurposed blade which appears to have been a backsword (single edged) type. It is a blade indeed of Solingen manufacture, and I would think of 17th century by the inscriptions. These inscriptions often included patriotic and religious invocations which included traditional ecclesiastical symbols in many cases (similar to the crusades type also noted).

Possibly the blade is from English provenance as Solingen was providing huge numbers of blades to England in the 17th century, and often mounted in cavalry swords. That English blades would end up in the colonies in America would not be at all surprising.

As swords had become of little use as weapons by the 19th century with the advent of firearms, it stands to reason that an 'old sword' might be relieved of its blade for better use as a knife for practical purposes. This was often the case, as in Scotland, when blades were broken or damaged, to be repurposed with cut down blades as 'dirks', much as Mark has described.

Knives such as this were prevalent in the American frontiers, and these 'old blades' so remounted often became the sound sidearms used in these rugged contexts.

Fantastic piece!!! Its intrinsic value historically is most important. Such wonderfully inscribed Solingen blades are seldom seen in such context as far as I have seen, though they do occasionally come up.

25th July 2020, 12:58 PM	#3
AUhills79 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 8	Thanks for all the replies, really interesting stuff! This knife would certainly have a story to tell if it could talk and I believe it still has more to say. You can see it has been used quite a bit after it was re-hilted because the stag horn has been worn down and marked up from constant handling. Interested in hearing more opinions on the date of this as it seems everyone I've talked to has a different idea on when this was paired with the blade though it does most closely resemble the confederate side-knifes M ELEY mentioned, especially the guard. Also very much interested on when the original blade was produced, it's original purpose, how it would have looked, and when it was likely broken and salvaged. I'll pull it out again today and get a better close-up of the makers mark too. Also I've been doing some more research on the symbols and found their origins all the way back in medieval times during the crusades. I've attached a couple images for reference. Surely the blade wouldn't date back to the crusades though, correct? Attached Images

25th July 2020, 02:08 PM	#4
AUhills79 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 8	Here are the last three things left to translate. 1: The maker's mark. 2: The diamond shape symbol made with 9 dots. 3: The "xxx" or ">>>" symbol. If these can be figured out I suspect that will help put an accurate date on the blade. I suspect there is only a limited slot in the timeline where all the symbols on this blade would of been used together. Attached Images

25th July 2020, 04:09 AM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	I would think the handle is as much as 70 years old. There is a modern vise mark on the blade ricasso someone used to assemble the grip to the blade. The blade is very interesting and am waiting for it to be identified..

25th July 2020, 05:39 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	To me, it appears to be what you indicated. A hunting knife made from a cut-down German sword. This was not an uncommon event at all. I have a British naval dirk ca. 1800 with an old sword cut-down blade. The honey yellow antler seems to possess age, as does the guard. "Eye-shaped" or diamond guards like the one on yours seemed to pop up in the second quarter of the 19th century and of course is a pattern still seen today. I would place it pre-1900 based on patina and styling, American side-knife or hunting dagger. Knives like these were seen on the American frontier, carried by Confederate soldiers as side knives (NOT bowie knives!). A general search of the internet will find some close comparisons. I'm not at home right now, but there's a pic of a knife nearly exact to yours in one of my books at home. You have a very interesting piece there! Mark

25th July 2020, 03:22 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,775	This is a fascinating knife! and as Mark has well noted, the blade is from a cut down repurposed blade which appears to have been a backsword (single edged) type. It is a blade indeed of Solingen manufacture, and I would think of 17th century by the inscriptions. These inscriptions often included patriotic and religious invocations which included traditional ecclesiastical symbols in many cases (similar to the crusades type also noted). Possibly the blade is from English provenance as Solingen was providing huge numbers of blades to England in the 17th century, and often mounted in cavalry swords. That English blades would end up in the colonies in America would not be at all surprising. As swords had become of little use as weapons by the 19th century with the advent of firearms, it stands to reason that an 'old sword' might be relieved of its blade for better use as a knife for practical purposes. This was often the case, as in Scotland, when blades were broken or damaged, to be repurposed with cut down blades as 'dirks', much as Mark has described. Knives such as this were prevalent in the American frontiers, and these 'old blades' so remounted often became the sound sidearms used in these rugged contexts. Fantastic piece!!! Its intrinsic value historically is most important. Such wonderfully inscribed Solingen blades are seldom seen in such context as far as I have seen, though they do occasionally come up.