Sraits(?), Malay(?), need your opinion

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Of course I agree with you and I know how the seat from the blade inside the scabbard looks normally (like shown by Gav in several examples), especially by Malay keris. But I am nearly sure that this scabbard is already some decades old together with the blade, the patina inside the opening tells me that. Of course it could be a replacement scabbard, this never could be ruled out. But it's for sure not done from a dealer or collector I assume.
I've owned and still own, especially some Bugis keris where the upside from the gonjo is in line with the opening in the scabbard.

Just to be clear Detlef, it was never my intention to imply that this was a marriage created by a dealer just to be able to sell a complete keris. And i am sure you are correct that this keris and sheath have been together for a very long time. It is very common for people in-culture to replace an old worn out sheath with a used one that is in better condition. Not ever person is in a financial position to commission a brand new sheath for their keris when one is necessary. It seems that most Western collectors are most concerned about having keris with both old and original dress. I have even encountered some collectors dismissing some nice old keris simply because that have very newly made dress. They prefer both old and original dress only. But the truth is that people dress their keris as best they can. Within the various keris cultures i believe that generally means that if your dress is worn out or broken beyond suitable repair you either commission new dress for it if you can afford it or replace it with an older used dress that is still in good condition. I would say it is the latter that happened here.

[A. G. Maisey]

What David has said here is so, but there are other reasons for a keris blade not fitting precisely into the wrongko.

A keris might have been given a new wrongko that came already made, bought from a market, & the fitting has been done by the owner. Not everybody has the necessary skills to fit a blade precisely.

The Bugis style keris often does have a gonjo that stands proud of the wrongko, but just as often, or perhaps more so, the gonjo will sit flush with the wrongko. It seems that over time styles changed, & not every area employed exactly the same style.

The idea of "original" when applied to keris is totally out of step with cultural norms, it is entirely an idea that comes from collectors who are outside the keris culture. As David has pointed out, owners would give their keris the best dress they could afford, in Jawa one keris can have multiple sets of dress, not just one set of dress.

Then there is concept of using one's keris to store wealth, as has often been said to me by Javanese keris literate people, the dress of a keris is just like the dress of a man, it is a set of clothes and can be changed for many reasons. If you have fitted a gold pendok when times were good, there is no problem with selling that gold pendok & replacing it with brass when times are not so good.

The only part of the complete keris that holds any esoteric force is the blade itself, all the dress is simply that:- dress.

By setting one's standards for collection to require that a wrongko must be "original" to the blade & also old, a collector is limiting his collection to keris that have mostly been dressed within the last couple of generations.

[Gavin Nugent]

Some dress is revered and retained through one's lifetime.
Some are repairs with inserts of horn or timber, to lift the blade to appropriate placement within the dress.
Such things can be done in favour of other blades such as this example was.

With regards to this example, the sampir has received the insert as pictured, the rare hulu has received a new horn covering below the beltline, and the butnut is also fixed with an unassuming horn type.

Quite the complete overhaul for it's replacement blade.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Some dress is revered and retained through one's lifetime.
Some are repairs with inserts of horn or timber, to lift the blade to appropriate placement within the dress.
Such things can be done in favour of other blades such as this example was.

With regards to this example, the sampir has received the insert as pictured, the rare hulu has received a new horn covering below the beltline, and the butnut is also fixed with an unassuming horn type.

Quite the complete overhaul for it's replacement blade.

Hello Gav,

I own several keris where I have let a wood restorer do similar "repairs" to fit a sarung for a blade, I thought it's worth getting a proper sarung!

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I thought it's worth getting a proper sarung!

Hello Detlef,

I am not entirely understanding this?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Hello Detlef,

I am not entirely understanding this?

Hello Gav,

I must have been unclear, sorry! I wanted to express that I have some keris blades that I had a sheath fitted to them by a restorer. Similar to what happened with your keris shown.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Just thought i would add this old example of a sheath that has been adjusted to fit a newer blade. I really cannot tell for sure, but this appears to have been done with some kind of resin which has now cracked from age. At least the inserted material does not seem to be wood.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I must have been unclear, sorry! I wanted to express that I have some keris blades that I had a sheath fitted to them by a restorer. Similar to what happened with your keris shown.

Here are two samples of such a restoration.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What David has said here is so, but there are other reasons for a keris blade not fitting precisely into the wrongko.

A keris might have been given a new wrongko that came already made, bought from a market, & the fitting has been done by the owner. Not everybody has the necessary skills to fit a blade precisely.

The Bugis style keris often does have a gonjo that stands proud of the wrongko, but just as often, or perhaps more so, the gonjo will sit flush with the wrongko. It seems that over time styles changed, & not every area employed exactly the same style.

The idea of "original" when applied to keris is totally out of step with cultural norms, it is entirely an idea that comes from collectors who are outside the keris culture. As David has pointed out, owners would give their keris the best dress they could afford, in Jawa one keris can have multiple sets of dress, not just one set of dress.

Then there is concept of using one's keris to store wealth, as has often been said to me by Javanese keris literate people, the dress of a keris is just like the dress of a man, it is a set of clothes and can be changed for many reasons. If you have fitted a gold pendok when times were good, there is no problem with selling that gold pendok & replacing it with brass when times are not so good.

The only part of the complete keris that holds any esoteric force is the blade itself, all the dress is simply that:- dress.

By setting one's standards for collection to require that a wrongko must be "original" to the blade & also old, a collector is limiting his collection to keris that have mostly been dressed within the last couple of generations.

Hello Alan,

Thank you for chime in and for your explanation! Frankly said I was a collector like you described in your last passage and changed my mind in the last few years.
Another reason that the fit isn't like it should be is that I believe that sampir and atasan were new attached some time ago and the repair could have changed the original fit, who knows!?

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Just to be clear Detlef, it was never my intention to imply that this was a marriage created by a dealer just to be able to sell a complete keris. And i am sure you are correct that this keris and sheath have been together for a very long time. It is very common for people in-culture to replace an old worn out sheath with a used one that is in better condition.

Hello David,

Don't worry, I've understood you correctly!

Regards,
Detlef