Smallsword Info (named Sebastian Ernandes)

[toaster5sqn]

What you are calling the arch then is correctly known as the knuckle bow these days. Although I am aware of one period source (Rowarth) who refers to it as the 'ward iron'.

Robert

[fernando]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

What you are calling the arch then is correctly known as the knuckle bow these days. Although I am aware of one period source (Rowarth) who refers to it as the 'ward iron'...

So you have cracked the riddle, Robert. Good shot .

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando thank you again for the detailed notes on the '3' which perfectly explains it as the letter Z in this parlance.
Robert, excellent notes on the nomenclature, which has changed through the centuries and is often confusing semantically.

May I ask which reference is 'Rowarth' ? the name is not familiar.
The term 'ward iron' is intriguing!
Other terms are fascinating as well, such as pas d'ane .

I think some of the hilt terms Fernando has shared over the years are most colorful as used in Portuguese, such as the 'boca de caballo' for the hit of the 'bilbo' sword etc.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...I think some of the hilt terms Fernando has shared over the years are most colorful as used in Portuguese, such as the 'boca de caballo' for the hit of the 'bilbo' sword etc.

Actually Spanish (Castillian), meaning "horse's mouth" in the Spaniards language .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Actually Spanish (Castillian), meaning "horse's mouth" in the Spaniards language .

Thank you Fernando. Far from being a linguist, I never am clear on just how closely (or far apart) these Iberian languages are. I do know that here, when those speaking Portuguese (or the form from Caribbean, Florida) try to communicate with Mexican folks, they might as well be from other planets!
Of course 'Mexican' does not go far in Madrid either.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando thank you again for the detailed notes on the '3' which perfectly explains it as the letter Z in this parlance.
Robert, excellent notes on the nomenclature, which has changed through the centuries and is often confusing

Is this related to the cedilla (ceda) and zeda Çç? I see the cedilla in older Spanish texts, probably into the late 17th maybe early 18th centuries?

Second question: Which of these two diagrams regarding pas d'ane is correct, or is it relative to which language you are discussing sword anatomy in?




PS I answered my own question in part before finishing the post. This tidbit is from Wikipedia:

"Zeta (UK: /ˈziːtə/,[1] US: /ˈzeɪtə/; uppercase Ζ, lowercase ζ; Ancient Greek: ζῆτα, Demotic Greek: ζήτα, classical [d͡zɛ̌:ta] or [zdɛ̌:ta] zē̂ta; Greek pronunciation: [ˈzita] zíta) is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet. In the system of Greek numerals, it has a value of 7. It was derived from the Phoenician letter zayin Zayin. Letters that arose from zeta include the Roman Z and Cyrillic З."

So... the letter we are discussing to my understanding is basically a lowercase Greek "z" with a diacritical mark?

Fernando the "3" being masculine effects the cidilla/ceda/cedilha, as well in medieval texts?

Edit: Attached is a picture of a zeta. The lower case looks a lot like the various incarnations of what we are discussing.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... Is this related to the cedilla (ceda) and zeda Çç? I see the cedilla in older Spanish texts, probably into the late 17th maybe early 18th centuries?

To put it simple, without digging into academic origins of the alphabet, like the letter Z being rebaptized Zeta by the old Greeks and all, the letter designed by Palomares in his chart, which looks like it doesn't betray the one in the punzones of Sebastian Hernandez, is a minuscle manuscript Z. Perhaps we ought to consider how writing styles were 'flexible' during early periods, specially if sword smiths were not so literate. I understand that, looking at that mark with our modern eyes, we are driven to see a 3 instead of a Z ... which is wrong.
Mind you, if iam talking nonsense don't tie me to whiping post .

Originally Posted by Interested Party

...Second question: Which of these two diagrams regarding pas d'ane is correct, or is it relative to which language you are discussing sword anatomy in?...

Based on the article provided above by Radboud, which perfectly sounds like a reliable source, the legitimate pas d'ane is depicted in post #13 and the misinterpreted one shown inpost #15. Whether its wrong assumption was due to a language miscarriage i wouldn't know, but (free) translating the first paragraphs from the said source we have that:

To avoid further derailing the discussion on the 1788 sword, here is another subject relating to the donkey step.

The donkey step (pas d'ane) is often understood to be the rings present on the hilt of court swords and rapiers.
This is an error which seems to have crept into the vocabulary of collectors in the 19th century. Indeed, if there are very few clear definitions of the term, the most precise is given to us by Sr. Phillibert de la Touche in his famous treatise "The true principles of the sword alone, published in 1670".
De La Touche therefore explains to us here that the guard plate is made up of two pas d'ane, which are its two bivalve parts. The big one and the little one ...
(The whole article is to long to transcribe here).



.

[Jim McDougall]

well put Fernando, as always. Anyone imagining there was any sort of strict adherence to alphabets, spelling or grammar through the centuries and with transliteration, is in for a big surprise.

Arms writers in the 19th century certainly didn't do us any favors. It seems we have spent decades trying to untangle all of these terms, phrases etc. applied to arms and armor in those times . These were, as with much of the 'historical writing', thoroughly laced with 'lore' and misperceptions.

Most of these have been so thoroughly ingrained in the colloquial idioms of the collecting world that it would be a semantic nightmare to try to change them now. Still for serious students of arms, it is good to have these kinds of details to cross refererence...I for one am intently adjusting my notes
Thank you so much guys!

[Interested Party]

Thanks Fernando and Jim. I appreciate your clarification on those two issues. I find the flexibility of the scripts fascinating and enlightening. I somehow thought the numerical value of 7 not to mention the miniscule z sometimes looking vaguely like a European 7 with a line might trigger Jim's talent of global learning.

As an apology for helping to derail this thread I wanted to post pictures with improved visibility of the inscription and sword profile. I also want to ask a question I am surprised that hasn't been asked already, is this a Spanish rapier blade remounted into an English small sword hilt? Maybe I'm just a bit obtuse.