Tulwar stamped blade mark question

Rumpel · 15th May 2016, 09:02 PM

Reviving an old thread...

I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there

).

Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards.

Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2016, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Reviving an old thread...

I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there

).

Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards.

Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades.

Rumpel, thank you for reviving this old thread! and especially for taking an interest in these markings. It seems there is not nearly quite enough known on these Indian markings, and presently we have some good threads going on both guns and swords of India.

Thank you also for the great pics and the panel of script characters to use in analyzing these markings.

First I would note to any readers who go back to cover this full thread, the linear 'crosses' in the original post in my opinion may be native interpretation of the Italian 'marca mosca' marks (often termed mill rind or twig in European parlance).
These occurred in many variations in the mark groupings and configurations on Italian blades, which of course were widely copied by native armourers and trade entrepots.

In post number 14, the stippled numbers on that tulwar blade are for Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan, and possibly Punjabi script letters.

It seems possible these two stamps on your blade may be from the Gurmukhi script used in the Punjab and by Sikhs.
The placement seems to align with the year date letters and inspection stamps used by the EIC but later possibly in some degree with EIG (East India Government).

These are simply speculations until we can find a good match in one of the many dialects throughout India.

Thanks again! Well posted!

Rumpel · 17th May 2016, 10:49 PM

Thank you so much Jim, stupidly I hadn't even considered non-Indo-Persian alphanumeric systems.

Gurmurkhi looks the closest match so far.

Many thanks again.

Jim McDougall · 18th May 2016, 01:06 AM

Not at all Rumpel!!!
If I could even remotely estimate how many things completely go past me, and I've been at this stuff a couple of years or so

There are so many dialects and languages in India's subcontinent and of course the influences of many outside sources it is a real challenge to tackle many of these markings.
I agree that Gurkmukhi is a good fit, and a Punjab oriented script which was most notably associated with Sikhs. This example may well be associated with Sikh arsenal stamps or other numeric significance which I would defer to those most knowledgeable on those topics.

Rumpel · 18th May 2016, 03:41 AM

I suppose the thing is that- unlike kaskaras, say, where a bring-back date is often going to be very late 19th c- for UK collectors tulwars could have come from almost anywhere in N India, at almost any time, with very little info to help us sort out the fine details.

I assume most old tulwars in western collections have radiated out from the UK, of course.

Jim McDougall · 18th May 2016, 06:48 AM

That would be a most plausible assumption as during British colonial presence and the Raj covering well over a century and a half, there were huge numbers of souveniers brought into Great Britain and throughout the Commonweath.
There were the largest dispersals at the clearing of many of the arsenals in many of the princely states in the latter 19th century, but hard to say just what period or circumstances brought the most of these into general circulation.

The thing with Indian arms is that after Egerton, and in minor degree certain other established collections in museums, they were not widely collected by general public nor particularly studied as with European arms and armor .

It was not really until Rawson (1967) that the field began to attract specific attention by private arms collectors, but that remained restrained in degree by the lack of resources and information, beyond the venerable work of Stone (1934). Thankfully in the years since Rawson, authors like G.N.Pant; Jaiwent Paul; Robert Elgood and others including researchers like our own Jens Nordlund, have added great dimension to the corpus of knowledge we have on these arms.

As always, the research never stops, so thank you for joining the quest!!

mrcjgscott · 24th May 2016, 12:45 PM

By happy chance I was going to post up my new tulwar (my second) when I saw this thread resurface.

Like the subject of Matt's query, my latest addition also carries the cross marks to the blade.

I assumed that they were pseudo-European markings, placed as a mark of quality.

Having hunted around, I cannot seem to see a specific term for a tulwar hilt without guard, is there such a term?

My first Tulwar posting on this board led to some very interesting discussion, I hope this one will also help me to learn more.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20246

Kind regards,

Chris

15th May 2016, 09:02 PM	#1
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Reviving an old thread... I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there ). Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards. Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades. Attached Images

17th May 2016, 10:49 PM	#3
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Thank you so much Jim, stupidly I hadn't even considered non-Indo-Persian alphanumeric systems. Gurmurkhi looks the closest match so far. Many thanks again. Attached Images

24th May 2016, 12:45 PM	#7
mrcjgscott Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 189	Serendipitous By happy chance I was going to post up my new tulwar (my second) when I saw this thread resurface. Like the subject of Matt's query, my latest addition also carries the cross marks to the blade. I assumed that they were pseudo-European markings, placed as a mark of quality. Having hunted around, I cannot seem to see a specific term for a tulwar hilt without guard, is there such a term? My first Tulwar posting on this board led to some very interesting discussion, I hope this one will also help me to learn more. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20246 Kind regards, Chris Attached Images

18th May 2016, 01:06 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Not at all Rumpel!!! If I could even remotely estimate how many things completely go past me, and I've been at this stuff a couple of years or so There are so many dialects and languages in India's subcontinent and of course the influences of many outside sources it is a real challenge to tackle many of these markings. I agree that Gurkmukhi is a good fit, and a Punjab oriented script which was most notably associated with Sikhs. This example may well be associated with Sikh arsenal stamps or other numeric significance which I would defer to those most knowledgeable on those topics.

18th May 2016, 03:41 AM	#5
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	I suppose the thing is that- unlike kaskaras, say, where a bring-back date is often going to be very late 19th c- for UK collectors tulwars could have come from almost anywhere in N India, at almost any time, with very little info to help us sort out the fine details. I assume most old tulwars in western collections have radiated out from the UK, of course.

18th May 2016, 06:48 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	That would be a most plausible assumption as during British colonial presence and the Raj covering well over a century and a half, there were huge numbers of souveniers brought into Great Britain and throughout the Commonweath. There were the largest dispersals at the clearing of many of the arsenals in many of the princely states in the latter 19th century, but hard to say just what period or circumstances brought the most of these into general circulation. The thing with Indian arms is that after Egerton, and in minor degree certain other established collections in museums, they were not widely collected by general public nor particularly studied as with European arms and armor . It was not really until Rawson (1967) that the field began to attract specific attention by private arms collectors, but that remained restrained in degree by the lack of resources and information, beyond the venerable work of Stone (1934). Thankfully in the years since Rawson, authors like G.N.Pant; Jaiwent Paul; Robert Elgood and others including researchers like our own Jens Nordlund, have added great dimension to the corpus of knowledge we have on these arms. As always, the research never stops, so thank you for joining the quest!!