Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Miscellania

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th January 2017, 08:17 AM   #1
Anandalal N.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 84
Default Possible Antique Bullet Extractor? - Medical

Any thoughts welcome.

Used to extract bullets lodged in the human body? Syringe shaped. When plunger depressed the grabber opens up and so may be carefully moved around the lodged bullet for extraction.
Attached Images
   
Anandalal N. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 08:20 AM   #2
Anandalal N.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 84
Default

See also:

http://www.ssplprints.com/image/1308...n-17th-century

Note that this instrument displayed here is slimmer and so easily inserted into the opening caused by the travelling bullet. The object illustrated in the above post has a widening at the base that is not consistent with this type of use?
Anandalal N. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 10:47 AM   #3
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 523
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anandalal N.
Any thoughts welcome.

Used to extract bullets lodged in the human body? Syringe shaped. When plunger depressed the grabber opens up and so may be carefully moved around the lodged bullet for extraction.
Hello,

this thing is too large for a bullet extractor.

Some time ago I have read a very interesting german paper from late medieval about the treatment of arrow and bullet wounds.
In most cases the bullet/arrow was left in the wound and they used different mixtures to cause ulceration (purulence), which brings the bullet out of the hole by itself or often by gravity.


Roland

Last edited by Roland_M; 25th January 2017 at 12:14 PM.
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 01:52 PM   #4
Anandalal N.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 84
Default

Hi Roland,

The more I look at this the more I tend to agree with you that this would be cumbersome to use as a bullet extractor though it follows the same principle.

As for leaving the bullet in the hole there seems to have been multiplicity of opinion. For example Thom. Longmore in a Treatise on Gunshot Wounds 1862 states the following:

On arrival at the hospital, where comparative leisure and absence of exposure afford means of careful diagnosis and definitive treatment, the following are the points to be attended to by the surgeon: firstly, examination of the wound with a view to obtaining the correct knowledge of its nature and extent; secondly, removal of any foreign bodies which may have lodged; thirdly, adjustment of lacerated structures; and fourthly, the application of the primary dressings.
Anandalal N. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 02:09 PM   #5
RobertGuy
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 135
Default

Perhaps culinary rather than medical?
Attached Images
 
RobertGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 02:14 PM   #6
RobertGuy
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 135
Default

Just found an even closer match
Attached Images
 
RobertGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 02:23 PM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

That was my instinctive guess; just didn't want to disenchant the thread author .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 03:29 PM   #8
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 523
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anandalal N.
Hi Roland,

The more I look at this the more I tend to agree with you that this would be cumbersome to use as a bullet extractor though it follows the same principle.

As for leaving the bullet in the hole there seems to have been multiplicity of opinion. For example Thom. Longmore in a Treatise on Gunshot Wounds 1862 states the following:

On arrival at the hospital, where comparative leisure and absence of exposure afford means of careful diagnosis and definitive treatment, the following are the points to be attended to by the surgeon: firstly, examination of the wound with a view to obtaining the correct knowledge of its nature and extent; secondly, removal of any foreign bodies which may have lodged; thirdly, adjustment of lacerated structures; and fourthly, the application of the primary dressings.
Hello Anandalal,

Thats pretty interesting for me. One reason could be the discovery of Morphine in the early 19th century. In Medieval and Renaissance times they only had alcohol, a leather strap between the teeth and/or a wooden hammer for "anesthetization". But lead is not very healthy inside the body. This might be one reason for the different treatment of shootet wounds.


best,
Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 04:02 PM   #9
Anandalal N.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 84
Default

Hi Roland,

Clearly you may be on to something. In fact Dr. Longmore advocates the use of Chloroform as an anaesthetic agent although there is interestingly no mention of Morphine that I came across. He states: The complete applicability of chloroform on the field to injuries caused by gunshot, as to all others in civil practice, is established among Continental surgeons, and among a majority of British army surgeons.

Thanks Robert. That settles the issue as to what it is though very curious that an Ice Grabber should follow the design of a plunger in a syringe.

Best.
Anandalal N. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 04:03 PM   #10
Anandalal N.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 84
Default

Since we are on the topic does anyone have examples of arrow and bullet extractors?

Rgds.
Anandalal N. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2017, 04:25 PM   #11
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anandalal N.
...In fact Dr. Longmore advocates the use of Chloroform as an anaesthetic agent although there is interestingly no mention of Morphine that I came across. He states: The complete applicability of chloroform on the field to injuries caused by gunshot, as to all others in civil practice, is established among Continental surgeons, and among a majority of British army surgeons...
Hi Anandalal,
You may read out there that Morphine, being a strong analgesic, is or was used before induction or during maintenance of anasthesy, to potentiate sedation.
Concerning Clorophorm, this was indeed a controversial composit but, there being apparently no alternative, this still was used as late as in 1950, having myself been put asleep with it.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2017, 12:40 AM   #12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

In Eastern regions warriors wore a silk vest which following the principle that silk is stronger than steel thus there was a degree of protection and that on the outer armour being penetrated the silk material closed around the arrowhead enabling later extraction.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2017, 11:35 PM   #13
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

In the Wild West, the old images of the fancy dressed gamblers wearing silk vests in the saloons made them look dandy. Truth was that it had been realized that silk was powerfully resistant to many bullet types, especially the cap and ball with lower velocity.
Most guns in the 70s and 80s west in towns and saloons were basically lower caliber and smaller 'pocket' type pistols as the wearing of guns openy was typically prohibited in town.

In the early 20th the military was interested in developing bullet resistant vests and material using silk, however it was not pursued, probably cost?

In one shooting instance in a saloon in c. 1880s, the attending doctor was astonished that a silk handkerchief on the victim had been carried into the wound, and surrounded the bullet but did not penetrate the silk.
Unfortunately the wound was fatal, but bullet came out handily.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th January 2017, 09:50 AM   #14
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

archduke ferdinand was wearing a thick silk vest when he was assassinated along with his wife. unfortunately he was shot in the neck an inch above the upper limit of said vest & it severed his jugular (not sure about his wife). tests done on a reconstructed section of such a vest shot at with the same make/mode of pistol (a 9mm automatic) at the same 2 metres, they proved it worked, stopping penetration and spreading the impact. *

greeks and romans at one time used folded linen armour, efficacious against arrows and slashes. as did poor archers with padded jackets in the anglo-french 100yrs. war. modern soldiers and police carry on the tradition with kevlar vests, helmets and gloves. the english in the crimean war complained about their new fancy quill backed blades bending on the greatcoats of their russian opponents, making their thrusts ineffective.

the romans used an arrow extractor that covered the barbs from behind when it could not be pushed thru & out the other side. they also understood the need to cleanse the wound of debris and used strong vinegar as a disinfectant, they had a better medical system than most modern battlefields up to very recently.

*- the BBC had a two-part documentary on the development of english firearms, i recorded it last week. watched it last night in fact. they had the segment on the duke and his bullet proof silk vest. the test was done at the royal armoury at leeds, uk. coincidental timing

Last edited by kronckew; 29th January 2017 at 10:15 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th January 2017, 01:00 PM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

They don't make bullet extractors like they used to ,
During my stay in the Wild West, bullets were extracted with a Bowie knife ... and anesthetic was wiskey. After the surgery we disinfected the wound by burning it with the Bowie point heated up in the fire. Do you guys never see te movies ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.