Is this a common Arab Saif ?

[Lee]

From the photo above it is also obvious that the Royal Armouries wisely chose to leave the high polish on their example alone.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Lee

From the photo above it is also obvious that the Royal Armouries wisely chose to leave the high polish on their example alone.

Wise words Lee ... and a perfect solution .

[Richard G]

I have seen a few of these. A polished or burnished blade is not uncommon, and for that matter common to many Arab swords. I think it is most probably how the original owners would have wanted it, so beyond cleaning, I would leave it as it is.
Best wishes
Richard

[fernando]

That is a settled matter Richard .

[Michael Blalock]

Here is one I have.

[fernando]

Excelent example, Mchael.
An European blade ? .

[fernando]

I have been trying to figure out was is the purpose of that little ring near the top of the scabbard, which i later associate with that little strap in one of the examples in Hale's work. My first thought was that this must be some kind of decoration, seen in some Saif scabbard examples.
But then i saw a thread in that Jens shows how a loop was present in some Indian scabbards, alledgely for the purpose to loop over a handle quillon to prevent the sword from slipping out.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23764.

This is a rather long shot, plus i notice that the (woven silver) strap in Hale's example seems a bit short for that but, could it either stretch by pulling it up, or by means of some material elasticity ?
Any better ideas, Gentlemen ?


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[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a Nimcha~ The question is where is it from.. ? Firstly it is not a Maghreb style nor is it a Zanzibari . Buttin I believe places this in the correct category and I have seen variants similar from Yemen and Saudia...The design appears to be Hindi but that does not mean absolutely from Hyderabad but it could be because of the trade links and Yemeni Mercenaries working there. It could have been made by an Indian craftsman living in Yemen...But I doubt that as well and return to Hyderabad since it would have been full of such craftsmen thus Hyderabad gets my vote.

I think a look at the Buttin Chart plate XXX below will show just how close that author was in his deliberations on these weapons. Personally I have a great difficulty putting the whole story together on what went where ...and how if at all the Moroccan is related to the Arabian? . For certain there are a whole lot of variants and how much is influenced from India or Yemen or Saudia is the puzzle we are trying to solve.

For Zanzibar the question is ...were any swords made there for which I have my doubts?..and suggest that swords were all imported in and from the countries trading in the Hub. Buttin lived most of his life in Morocco and would certainly have noted any relationship with Zanzibari weapons but he never did... In fact the three plates are entirely separate. 1009 and those straight guards flanking it probably sets out the variant we are looking at.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=buttin shows other similar forms and below what looks more like a Yemeni style although very similar ..Thus I think it would be a spllt decision to exactly place the pin point origin.. Yemeni/Saudia ?

As for the cut out Knock under the pommel my view has always been that this was the pivotal point with which the little finger was able to swivel and twist the hilt giving it a very flexible feel in combat mode..

[Jim McDougall]

Beautiful sword!!!
I finally found pics of one of these sa'if I have had for many years. The hilt is of course more toward the 'karabela' style (often termed hawks head in some Arabian parlance) rather than this style which is known in same contexts.
According to what I recall from Lebedynsky these are of 18th c. but certainly would have been from later as well with traditions continuing.

Mine has a highly polished blade as well, which I always shuddered at the thought of it being chrome, but resolved as here that it was highly polished.
It has an inscription which I take to be commemorative as it reads"
"...the Islamic sword named after Muhammed al Hassan, the commander of all Faithful, the one who God choose victorious, was drawn in the year 1119H."

The year I believe is 1689, but I am uncertain how accurately I have relayed this or the inscription. However it does as noted seem commemorative.

The motif in the silver repousse does correspond with similar found in Hyderabad, and as has been noted, there was a long tradition of Yemeni (Hadhramaut) mercenary forces to Hyderabad and much of the mounting seems to have been made there.
The styling also includes very much Arabian character such as the 'aghrab' at scabbard throat mount.

The scabbard here is also of interest as it is with silver band wrap gadrooned over red velveteen, an affectation known well in Bukharen context. It seems discussions here some time back revealed strong ties between Bukhara and Yemen religiously and diplomatically. While this suggests a Yemeni production but could have of course been transmitted to Hyderabad and filtered into the making of mounts there.

I cannot see the curious mount above the baldric rings, but agree with Fernando, this is I believe to secure the sword in the scabbard. It seems I had read somewhere it was something like a 'safety' on a pistol, and indicator of peaceful contact despite a weapon being worn, where such was considered a threatening or disrespectful demeanor.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I cannot see the curious mount above the baldric rings, but agree with Fernando, this is I believe to secure the sword in the scabbard. It seems I had read somewhere it was something like a 'safety' on a pistol, and indicator of peaceful contact despite a weapon being worn, where such was considered a threatening or disrespectful demeanor.

Whether the 'safety' posture is not implausible, the fact is that blades often need to be secured inside their scabbards ... like in this Saif of mine.
It remains for me to figure out what kind of material/s was used for the securing cord; whether some stretching material or solid string, which tension applied when looping it around the quillon finial would suffice; reason why i haven't yet took the scabbard to the local silver smith to replicate the real thing and remedy with a arrangement made by myself, with some tense (leather?) cord, clipped with some silver wire bits.


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[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Fernando.
While the 'safety' bit is from some apocryphal note seen 'passim' in reading I cannot place some time ago, it does seem to have a degree of viability.
In another equally obscure recollection, it does seem that on some Islamic edged weapons there are strings of beads, in somewhat the manner of Catholic rosaries, but in this case having to do with the Family of the Prophet ...but I cannot speak further to this. Just another possibility.

[qusko]

Adding some pictures of the hilt without silver cover.
Looks like tang is going through the handle.

[ariel]

Arabs very often used high-mirror polish. I have a couple of those, with pretty worn handles, but with blades one could use as a shaving mirror.
Take it to a local jeweler with a good machine: they can detect chrome or nickel in 5 seconds flat.
If it is in the original Arab polish, I would try to preserve it as is: oil only.

Excellent find!!!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Arabs very often used high-mirror polish. I have a couple of those, with pretty worn handles, but with blades one could use as a shaving mirror.
Take it to a local jeweler with a good machine: they can detect chrome or nickel in 5 seconds flat.
If it is in the original Arab polish, I would try to preserve it as is: oil only.

Excellent find!!!

Thank you Ariel,
We have ran this marathon in the first page of this thread but, thanks for reminding it. Also good to refresh my alzheimer in that i didn't yet wash and oil the blade of this one and that of my mameluke saber.

[David R]

Irrelevant post.

[RAMBA]

Originally Posted by Lee

From the photo above it is also obvious that the Royal Armouries wisely chose to leave the high polish on their example alone.

"Unpolish" at one's peril. I would not touch it.