Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th October 2019, 12:41 PM   #1
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,304
Default Tulwar info please.

Hi,
I seem to remember getting this sword in a job lot about 10yrs ago and consigning it to the garage along with a few other bits. I found it today during the 25yr clear out, cleaned it up a little, definitely needed a bit of cleaning, and wondered if you could help me with the usual where and when. At first glance before cleaning I thought it was probably a 20thC touristic item and it might still be but as per photos there is evidence of gold work on the blade and possibly on the hilt. The blade is forged and sharp with a makers mark? near the hilt. The resin in the hilt does look to have some age to it. The hilt appears to be cast bronze not brass. Any info or ideas would be helpful.
Regards,
Norman.
Attached Images
     
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2019, 01:06 PM   #2
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,479
Default

Judging from the photos is difficult, but from what I see there is nothing "touristy" about this blade. Generally the "touristy" stuff is characterised by heavily decorated (mainly etched) blades, without a properly shaped cutting edge with blades of low carbon content that bend easily.

You seem to have a honest 19th century (my guess) Tulwar meant for business (the business being fighting).

While the photos do not appear to show an Indian ricasso, the general shape of the blade appears Indian to my eyes. But of course, better photos including the markings would be very useful.

Many old, rusty Tulwars have wootz blades and yours may be one... but this is a lottery.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2019, 01:15 PM   #3
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,704
Default

Norman, have a look at the form of the attached. On the back of the blade there is an inscription refering to Amir Kamar who ruled in Sind from 1811 to 1828 AD.


Is the makers mark a katar? If yes then I have a surprise for you.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Jens Nordlunde : 16th October 2019 at 02:59 PM.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2019, 04:57 PM   #4
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,304
Default

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the information and the interest.

Hi Jens,
The mark could very well be the outline of a Katar. The periphery of the mark where it is not protected by the langets is a bit faint, use I guess. I have added another image which I think gives a better view of what's left of the mark. The steel has very little spring, I suspect it would not break if overly bent but would take a set. Better a bent blade than a broken one though. The cast decoration on the langets is noticeably more worn on one side consistent with the sword having been suspended on the left hand side edge down.
My Regards,
Norman.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Norman McCormick : 16th October 2019 at 05:44 PM.
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2019, 06:35 PM   #5
mross
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 448
Default

What would be the procedure to determine wootz?
mross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2019, 07:29 PM   #6
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mross
What would be the procedure to determine wootz?


Polish it, then etch it, on a small area. If yes, then the whole blade.

I have made a thread about this long ago.

Here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2019, 03:33 PM   #7
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,704
Default

Although there, in the last years, have been published a number of books on Indian arms, we still know very little about the trade/production and decoration/re-decoration.
Some is known, but a lot is still missing, like some of the markings on the blades. Were they made at the time, or were they made later, if yes, when?
We will, no doubt, move on in our knowledge, but it will be slow, and with some uncertainty untill we find enough evidence to be able to say - that is how it was.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2019, 04:03 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 7,782
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Although there, in the last years, have been published a number of books on Indian arms, we still know very little about the trade/production and decoration/re-decoration.
Some is known, but a lot is still missing, like some of the markings on the blades. Were they made at the time, or were they made later, if yes, when?
We will, no doubt, move on in our knowledge, but it will be slow, and with some uncertainty untill we find enough evidence to be able to say - that is how it was.



Very well said Jens, and through the years we have often tried to move forward with observing and trying to classify such things with Indian arms. At best, the arms themselves are often enigmatic let alone the decoration, but the markings such as these curiously placed 'katar' (?) and others defy explanation.

We have tried to determine arsenal marks many times, and aside from a couple we somewhat isolated, Bikaner (and its stipled dot patterns) was the only one definitely identified. In that instance, we can be relatively certain many, if not most of the arms there had the markings added later, as they were obviously captured (the Adonis cache largest) and marked as stored.

The only means we have of doing this is to examine examples with like markings, and with some consistency, hopefully some 'Rosetta weapon' (the linguistic breakthrough) with provenance will give us the answer to the location or armory.

Many of the marks seem established as 'talismanic', such as the trimurti (three dots) which are often found in strategic locations on the blade. These may well have been added at the time the blade was made. Many marks on blades were probably placed at manufacture as they alluded to certain quality, magic or power in the blade itself. These were selling points for the blade which was locally hilted for clients .

As we know, most references on arms, including Indian arms, steer away from subjective analysis of markings, decoration or elemental features.
Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms & Ritual" is the first reference as far as I have known to reach into metaphysical and more subjective elements in weapons, in this case Indian arms. Aside from that, the only such attention (I have been aware of)that has been afforded weapons and the subjects of religious and supernatural applications has been in the world of the keris.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2019, 04:04 PM   #9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default


Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 19th October 2019 at 04:22 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2019, 04:22 PM   #10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Just flipping back a few pages in library viewing http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5748
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2019, 08:21 PM   #11
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,704
Default

It is an interresting link Ibrahiim, but unfortunately the markings of the Indian weapons seem to be far more complicated than this.
I am researching it on and off, but I still have a long way to go, before I can say - now I really have news.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:06 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.