Keris Identification please

ASPaulding · 17th October 2023, 03:30 AM

I have spent the last few months trying to study the keris. I feel that I have made some decent progress but this one has stumped me. It looks very old to me. The mendak looks aged as well. The ganja may have been gold plated at one point. I know there is ways to make it look older then it is. The main thing is the pamor has got me stumped. There is a character in the design. I didnt even notice till I started taking pictures. I have not been able to find another example like it. It reminds me of Bambang Sumantri. I am sure there is another design on the other side but I can not make it out. Is this an artificially aged piece or just a old keris that is a victim of a few to many citrus baths? Please any assistance with age and region would be appreciated. Thanks

A. G. Maisey · 17th October 2023, 03:49 AM

The wayang figure that we can see has been put onto the blade by what we call the "batik" process. Batik cloth is dyed by covering with wax those parts of the cloth that we do not want the dye to touch. This figure has been created in the same way, it was drawn onto the blade with wax, then the blade was soaked in acid which left the figure in relief.

Regrettably whoever did this was a bit of a novice, or maybe just plain lazy or stupid or forgetful, and the entire blade was soaked in acid for far too long. This has resulted in what we can see, which is a blade that has been damaged so badly that it is probably beyond resurrection.

What I can see of the pamor motif looks like a random pattern, wos wutah. It is an old blade, probably Tuban-Pajajaran. To my eye, the gonjo has never had any kinatah work or plating.

The wrongko is Madurese ladrangan, it needs a pendok, the hilt is Javanese, it tends towards Jogja rather than Solo, but I cannot get a clear impression from the photos, the mendak is damaged and missing its lower rings.

I'm sorry I was not able to be a bit more upbeat, the clown who ruined this keris should have had his own hands put into the acid that destroyed the blade.

The heavy etch process to create images in blades was very popular in late colonial times & for a very brief period after WWII.

ASPaulding · 17th October 2023, 04:00 AM

I few more photos.

ASPaulding · 17th October 2023, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The wayang figure that we can see has been put onto the blade by what we call the "batik" process.

I'm sorry I was not able to be a bit more upbeat, the clown who ruined this keris should have had his own hands put into the acid that destroyed the blade.

It's OK. At least I have learned something new. I have never heard of batik process. I thought maybe something has happened to the blade to make it looks like this. Thank you for the information.

A. G. Maisey · 17th October 2023, 05:50 AM

Batik is a process for dying cloth, the keris community in Jawa has borrowed it, more or less sarcastically, to apply to these acid etched patterns on blades.

This explanation of the process for making Batik Tulis is as good as any, & understanding how it works with cloth helps in understanding how the pattern is produced in metal.

https://australian.museum/learn/cult...batik-process/

jagabuwana · 19th October 2023, 02:08 AM

Hello Alan, is something like this typically done in order to make the keris more appealing for resale?

ASPaulding · 19th October 2023, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Hello Alan, is something like this typically done in order to make the keris more appealing for resale?

I still havn't came across another example that has something like this done to the blade. I have seen many examples of art done on fabric by the batik process. I assume it is to raise the value. I wonder if it really stands out if warangan is applied? Hopefully somebody will chime in.

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2023, 03:56 AM

Yes Jaga, a lot, but not all of these "enhancements" to older keris are simply to make an old, unattractive, difficult to sell blade more marketable.

But this "batik" thing they used to do although it might have had a plus effect 80 or 100 years ago, has a minus effect now. I've seen a very, very few that have been well done and really have looked pretty good, but most have been outright ugly.

I'd put money on it, that if this blade had been left alone and not fiddled with, its market value now would be 20 times what it is in its present condition.

It will still be 100% visible after a blade stain, but honestly, I would not waste time or money on this blade.

ASPaulding · 19th October 2023, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

an old, unattractive, difficult to sell blade more marketable.

It will still be 100% visible after a blade stain, but honestly, I would not waste time or money on this blade.

It is a shame somebody would ruin a perfectly good antique blade. I understand it is not worth the attempt to stain. I will chalk this up to a learning experience. I will at least still enjoy the history it had before it became worthless...

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2023, 07:01 AM

The wrongko looks OK, and the hilt is usable, keep your eyes open for an orphan blade and you might be able to do a rebuild.

Jean · 19th October 2023, 08:31 AM

This blade probably uses the same process but it was well made.
Regards

milandro · 19th October 2023, 10:04 AM

I have seen this kind of kris before for sale in the NL, I am sure that I saw the same sitting figure although the contrast was higher and needn't having light coming from the side to enhance the figure's design.

It seems indeed acid etched on the blade with a process which may have used wax or something similar.

I personally don't care much for this kind of kris.

But there is a lid for every pot.

There is certainly someone out there who would like it and I personally wouldn't bother to separate the blade from the rest of the elements which were already put together more or less randomly in the first place.

The reason why people collect krises vary from the museum-quality-taxonomic-oriented to the mystical and there is really no account for personal taste, whatever tickles one's fancy, goes.

jagabuwana · 20th October 2023, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Jaga, a lot, but not all of these "enhancements" to older keris are simply to make an old, unattractive, difficult to sell blade more marketable.

But this "batik" thing they used to do although it might have had a plus effect 80 or 100 years ago, has a minus effect now. I've seen a very, very few that have been well done and really have looked pretty good, but most have been outright ugly.

I'd put money on it, that if this blade had been left alone and not fiddled with, its market value now would be 20 times what it is in its present condition.

It will still be 100% visible after a blade stain, but honestly, I would not waste time or money on this blade.

Thank you Alan.

I agree that it's market value now would be decent had it not been fiddled. There seems to be a healthy appetite to pay good money for blades with 'older' classifications like Paja and its variants.

A. G. Maisey · 20th October 2023, 03:36 AM

Yes, you're right Jaga, & often that enthusiasm for attributed age is misdirected. Leaving to one side the archaic kerises, like KB's, the value of other keris depends on much more than just age, quality & condition are extremely important.

jagabuwana · 20th October 2023, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, you're right Jaga, & often that enthusiasm for attributed age is misdirected. Leaving to one side the archaic kerises, like KB's, the value of other keris depends on much more than just age, quality & condition are extremely important.

Yes I understand, Alan. My observation is that the enthusiasm seems to be because old is associated with being more authentic than more recent productions, or having more power. At least that's how I used to think when I was very new to all of this.

Sadly I think this works all too well for dealers without scruples.

milandro · 20th October 2023, 08:04 AM

we spoke about this often

there are many traders whom deal with artificially aged or otherwise tampered with krises and , of course, there are many buyers prepared to pay for stuff which is looking corroded or shows " age" .

I've seen krises advertised as being from the 12th century

and of course the same (or other) krises are also sold to be laden with immense powers (as long as this add to the price)

Much depends on what one attributes to the kris and the reason why one " collects" (for lack of a better word).

17th October 2023, 03:30 AM	#1
ASPaulding Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 83	Keris Identification please I have spent the last few months trying to study the keris. I feel that I have made some decent progress but this one has stumped me. It looks very old to me. The mendak looks aged as well. The ganja may have been gold plated at one point. I know there is ways to make it look older then it is. The main thing is the pamor has got me stumped. There is a character in the design. I didnt even notice till I started taking pictures. I have not been able to find another example like it. It reminds me of Bambang Sumantri. I am sure there is another design on the other side but I can not make it out. Is this an artificially aged piece or just a old keris that is a victim of a few to many citrus baths? Please any assistance with age and region would be appreciated. Thanks Attached Images

17th October 2023, 04:00 AM	#3
ASPaulding Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 83	I few more photos. Attached Images

19th October 2023, 08:31 AM	#11
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This blade probably uses the same process but it was well made. Regards Attached Images

17th October 2023, 03:49 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	The wayang figure that we can see has been put onto the blade by what we call the "batik" process. Batik cloth is dyed by covering with wax those parts of the cloth that we do not want the dye to touch. This figure has been created in the same way, it was drawn onto the blade with wax, then the blade was soaked in acid which left the figure in relief. Regrettably whoever did this was a bit of a novice, or maybe just plain lazy or stupid or forgetful, and the entire blade was soaked in acid for far too long. This has resulted in what we can see, which is a blade that has been damaged so badly that it is probably beyond resurrection. What I can see of the pamor motif looks like a random pattern, wos wutah. It is an old blade, probably Tuban-Pajajaran. To my eye, the gonjo has never had any kinatah work or plating. The wrongko is Madurese ladrangan, it needs a pendok, the hilt is Javanese, it tends towards Jogja rather than Solo, but I cannot get a clear impression from the photos, the mendak is damaged and missing its lower rings. I'm sorry I was not able to be a bit more upbeat, the clown who ruined this keris should have had his own hands put into the acid that destroyed the blade. The heavy etch process to create images in blades was very popular in late colonial times & for a very brief period after WWII.

17th October 2023, 05:50 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Batik is a process for dying cloth, the keris community in Jawa has borrowed it, more or less sarcastically, to apply to these acid etched patterns on blades. This explanation of the process for making Batik Tulis is as good as any, & understanding how it works with cloth helps in understanding how the pattern is produced in metal. https://australian.museum/learn/cult...batik-process/

19th October 2023, 02:08 AM	#6
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 276	Hello Alan, is something like this typically done in order to make the keris more appealing for resale?

19th October 2023, 03:56 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Yes Jaga, a lot, but not all of these "enhancements" to older keris are simply to make an old, unattractive, difficult to sell blade more marketable. But this "batik" thing they used to do although it might have had a plus effect 80 or 100 years ago, has a minus effect now. I've seen a very, very few that have been well done and really have looked pretty good, but most have been outright ugly. I'd put money on it, that if this blade had been left alone and not fiddled with, its market value now would be 20 times what it is in its present condition. It will still be 100% visible after a blade stain, but honestly, I would not waste time or money on this blade.

19th October 2023, 07:01 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	The wrongko looks OK, and the hilt is usable, keep your eyes open for an orphan blade and you might be able to do a rebuild.

19th October 2023, 10:04 AM	#12
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 419	I have seen this kind of kris before for sale in the NL, I am sure that I saw the same sitting figure although the contrast was higher and needn't having light coming from the side to enhance the figure's design. It seems indeed acid etched on the blade with a process which may have used wax or something similar. I personally don't care much for this kind of kris. But there is a lid for every pot. There is certainly someone out there who would like it and I personally wouldn't bother to separate the blade from the rest of the elements which were already put together more or less randomly in the first place. The reason why people collect krises vary from the museum-quality-taxonomic-oriented to the mystical and there is really no account for personal taste, whatever tickles one's fancy, goes.

20th October 2023, 03:36 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Yes, you're right Jaga, & often that enthusiasm for attributed age is misdirected. Leaving to one side the archaic kerises, like KB's, the value of other keris depends on much more than just age, quality & condition are extremely important.

20th October 2023, 08:04 AM	#16
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 419	we spoke about this often there are many traders whom deal with artificially aged or otherwise tampered with krises and , of course, there are many buyers prepared to pay for stuff which is looking corroded or shows " age" . I've seen krises advertised as being from the 12th century and of course the same (or other) krises are also sold to be laden with immense powers (as long as this add to the price) Much depends on what one attributes to the kris and the reason why one " collects" (for lack of a better word).