The m1804 British naval cutlass

adrian · 10th November 2022, 09:14 PM

Thanks Adrian. Just when you think there is something definite!

I study the longarms more so than the blades and I do agree that, frustratingly, there almost always seems to be an exception to any 'rule'.

Interesting that the GR was still being used right through William's reign and into Victoria's.

William did have his own cypher placed on locks set-up to arms within his reign. However most barrels used in his reign were 'old' from Store & therefore have their original GR proof stamps. The only proof stamp that can confidently be ascribed to William is the 'crown/TP/arrow' stamp (sometimes in different config) and that can be found on the few 'new made' barrels from his reign, such as on the Manton P/1833 Cavalry Carbine. His reign was a 'quiet' time for arms manufacture as the old war store was still being 'run down' and experimentation was being conducted on the percussion system.

I know carving out the mirror image cypher onto a steel punch to form the stamp must have required a large amount of skill.
The stamps appear to have generally been ordered from makers, there are records of purchase but it does seems to have been rather frugal in the way we see old stamps being used much later.

There is a Victoria cypher which has been made by removing part of the W from a William cypher. I'll look out the pictures. Tends to support the theory that it took a while for new stamps to get made.

I would be most interested to see that - a separate thread perhaps. I doubt it would be a lock plate cypher, due to the engraving method of application at that time. I suspect therefore that you mean the Crown/MR proof stamp which is most often misinterpreted as Crown IVR and ascribed to William IV (Blackmore has that misinterpretation) or as VR and ascribed to Victoria, as it is often mis-struck but is different to her much later VR proof stamp. The Crown/MR stamp actually dates to no later than 1816. (ref Bailey, The Armoury Mills Kent, JAAS Vol 21 No.6)

M ELEY · 11th November 2022, 12:56 AM

Thank you, CC and Adrian, for your input. I, too, am flummoxed by the quite late usage of the block GR stamping! Is there any significance, though, to the fact that the early block letters found on blades were in-line to the hilt whereas these are perpendicular?

CC, That is an amazing and beautiful example of a Coastguard cutlass! You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR. I had assumed it was a later stamping, as it is weak and the style of sword from earlier. But with all of this new information on WR markings made into VR stamps and GR stamps still around in the mid-19th, the puzzle continues!

And do I dare say I've seen British 1845 cutlass marked simply with RN (Royal Navy? Yet, no crown or Victoria, or??? My head is about to explode!

)

adrian · 11th November 2022, 01:33 AM

You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR.

As you suspect it is a VR stamp, if WR it would be too 'off center'.

M ELEY · 11th November 2022, 03:10 AM

Makes sense. Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses? A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark?

adrian · 11th November 2022, 06:13 AM

Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses?

Not that I recollect, however my interest in cutlasses does not run to any great depth.

A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark?

Whilst I am familiar with various items & ordnance intended for sea service often bearing the letter 'N' to distinguish that it is for Naval issue those items were Ordnance supplied and as such they bear Ordnance inspection stamps etc. An item dating from the Georgian to the mid/late Victorian period marked RN would therefore get my attention as being outside of this, and if it bore no Ordnance markings then I would consider it to be highly suspect as far as it being a British sea service item. For anything later, I do not know enough to do other than speculate.

M ELEY · 11th November 2022, 06:30 AM

Thanks, Adrian. Just wanted to get your opinion. Perhaps these cutlasses were more of the private purchase type for merchantmen or direct export and the RN might have simply been a maker's stamp?

CutlassCollector · 11th November 2022, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR.

Hi Mark, I'm thinking VR as well although hard to tell. It looks more like the end of a V and note the 'modified' W above has a horizontal serif at the top.

CutlassCollector · 11th November 2022, 03:20 PM

Reference the VR cutlass. It was the faded cypher I owned and it was very well used and worn. I spotted the other one go through an auction and stole the pictures.
I'm told the crown is correct for the period a James Crown - again my knowledge is limited in that area. It does look similar to the crown on Adrian's two examples and the coastguard with the two crosses at the front of the same period.
But it is very different from the GR crown on Mark's 1804 in post 3.

adrian · 11th November 2022, 09:34 PM

It has been discussed before and opinions vary as to why an 1804 would have a VR stamp when no new cutlasses had been made for many years. Some think that the cypher is fake, but it looks OK to me - any thoughts?

Thank you for posting the photos of this intriguing WR modified to VR royal cypher. I can only draw a parallel with muskets of the same period. The war store of these (complete muskets) was so vast, by 1816, that it was not worryingly low until 1838, and measures were then undertaken to address that, while awaiting the new percussion arm to be finalised. The Store of parts was also vast, and it was that 'store' which provided barrels & locks for the new arms. The barrels had their GR era proof & view stamps, they were not erased & re-stamped, merely viewed & approved as regards their 'percussioning'. The locks did not anyway have any engraving & bore only an acceptance stamp - so they acquired the current royal cypher as part of the work of setting-up an arm. The number of muskets made using up the 'old' stock of barrels & locks comprised about eight patterns and numbered well over a quarter of a million muskets, the vast majority being Extra Service Muskets.

Quite why these blades have been stamped with a royal cypher is unknown to me, however it is clear that the cypher has been altered from WR to VR and that it looks to be authentic.

My own theory for the contradiction follows. A large number of existing 1804 cutlasses had been sent to the tower for modification, which included a new hilt, when a serious fire at the Tower in 1841 destroyed large numbers of these. In order to make up the the serious shortage these were re-issued with a VR stamp in the 1840s.

The fire at the Tower was, if one reads modern references, a major watershed in the direction of British Ordnance small arms due to it, supposedly, wiping out all percussion muskets made to date, wiping out a vast number of a new design of flintlock muskets that were going to be converted to percussion and wiping out a vast store of parts that were going to be used. This belief is largely false. I won't go into detail but would instead point any interested student of arms to a new book that will be published by the Royal Armouries next year in which chapter 7 covers that fire and the number of arms lost in detail, the book 'British Ordnance Muskets of the 1830s & 1840s'.
I have to say that it is unlikely that your quite sound theory will hold up to scrutiny as the official return for swords lost in that conflagration is 1,376 swords & 2,271 sword blades - it provides no distinction between sea service or land service, nor does it distinguish between those services for pistols, muskets, etc. How many of those 'swords' were cutlasses is therefore uncertain, but the overall number is anyway too small to have any import.

However, the Tower was only one of many Stores - which is why there was so little impact as can be seen by the aforementioned vast number of muskets made with barrels & locks from store, altered to percussion. So perhaps some cutlasses were made/altered at a different location, indeed I would have thought that Enfield, and not the Tower, would have been tasked with the changes you describe in your theory especially given the period under discussion.
Indeed there was 'Sea Service swords, alterations proposed on, by Storekeeper, Enfield. Approved by Admiralty.' and although that was in 1852 it is logical to speculate that this was not the first such instance of such work to sea service swords.

M ELEY · 12th November 2022, 04:58 AM

Thank you for posting that incredible modified WR marking! That really is an interesting adaptation from the original stamp! It is interesting that we obviously have the m1804s that are being used into William's and Victoria's era. No new pattern was created until the forth decade of the 19th, but still the odd fact that the GR was still being found on later pieces.

I had heard of the Tower fire, but always assumed it had mostly destroyed the stored guns. I wasn't thinking that there was a cache of the ole m1804's being kept there (duh!). That could explain the re-usage of the earlier blades when the stockpile was depleted and new ones weren't being issued. As Adrian points out, pure speculation, but at least a possible theory to this situation. I confess that it is mostly for selfish reasons why it bothers me! If the GR markings were used later (after Age of Fighting Sail), then they were used in an era where they were obsolescent. Likewise, how does one know if 'this cutlass over here' is of the period, but that one was post-1830 or whatever. I could see questioning the crown-marked Swedish imports or even the unmarked examples. But an 1804 with the GR has always been solidly assumed by most to be of the time period of the two Georges...until now, I guess!

11th November 2022, 12:56 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Thank you, CC and Adrian, for your input. I, too, am flummoxed by the quite late usage of the block GR stamping! Is there any significance, though, to the fact that the early block letters found on blades were in-line to the hilt whereas these are perpendicular? CC, That is an amazing and beautiful example of a Coastguard cutlass! You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR. I had assumed it was a later stamping, as it is weak and the style of sword from earlier. But with all of this new information on WR markings made into VR stamps and GR stamps still around in the mid-19th, the puzzle continues! And do I dare say I've seen British 1845 cutlass marked simply with RN (Royal Navy? Yet, no crown or Victoria, or??? My head is about to explode!)

11th November 2022, 09:34 PM	#9
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 118	It has been discussed before and opinions vary as to why an 1804 would have a VR stamp when no new cutlasses had been made for many years. Some think that the cypher is fake, but it looks OK to me - any thoughts? Thank you for posting the photos of this intriguing WR modified to VR royal cypher. I can only draw a parallel with muskets of the same period. The war store of these (complete muskets) was so vast, by 1816, that it was not worryingly low until 1838, and measures were then undertaken to address that, while awaiting the new percussion arm to be finalised. The Store of parts was also vast, and it was that 'store' which provided barrels & locks for the new arms. The barrels had their GR era proof & view stamps, they were not erased & re-stamped, merely viewed & approved as regards their 'percussioning'. The locks did not anyway have any engraving & bore only an acceptance stamp - so they acquired the current royal cypher as part of the work of setting-up an arm. The number of muskets made using up the 'old' stock of barrels & locks comprised about eight patterns and numbered well over a quarter of a million muskets, the vast majority being Extra Service Muskets. Quite why these blades have been stamped with a royal cypher is unknown to me, however it is clear that the cypher has been altered from WR to VR and that it looks to be authentic. My own theory for the contradiction follows. A large number of existing 1804 cutlasses had been sent to the tower for modification, which included a new hilt, when a serious fire at the Tower in 1841 destroyed large numbers of these. In order to make up the the serious shortage these were re-issued with a VR stamp in the 1840s. The fire at the Tower was, if one reads modern references, a major watershed in the direction of British Ordnance small arms due to it, supposedly, wiping out all percussion muskets made to date, wiping out a vast number of a new design of flintlock muskets that were going to be converted to percussion and wiping out a vast store of parts that were going to be used. This belief is largely false. I won't go into detail but would instead point any interested student of arms to a new book that will be published by the Royal Armouries next year in which chapter 7 covers that fire and the number of arms lost in detail, the book 'British Ordnance Muskets of the 1830s & 1840s'. I have to say that it is unlikely that your quite sound theory will hold up to scrutiny as the official return for swords lost in that conflagration is 1,376 swords & 2,271 sword blades - it provides no distinction between sea service or land service, nor does it distinguish between those services for pistols, muskets, etc. How many of those 'swords' were cutlasses is therefore uncertain, but the overall number is anyway too small to have any import. However, the Tower was only one of many Stores - which is why there was so little impact as can be seen by the aforementioned vast number of muskets made with barrels & locks from store, altered to percussion. So perhaps some cutlasses were made/altered at a different location, indeed I would have thought that Enfield, and not the Tower, would have been tasked with the changes you describe in your theory especially given the period under discussion. Indeed there was 'Sea Service swords, alterations proposed on, by Storekeeper, Enfield. Approved by Admiralty.' and although that was in 1852 it is logical to speculate that this was not the first such instance of such work to sea service swords. Last edited by adrian; 11th November 2022 at 09:52 PM.

10th November 2022, 09:14 PM	#1
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 118	Thanks Adrian. Just when you think there is something definite! I study the longarms more so than the blades and I do agree that, frustratingly, there almost always seems to be an exception to any 'rule'. Interesting that the GR was still being used right through William's reign and into Victoria's. William did have his own cypher placed on locks set-up to arms within his reign. However most barrels used in his reign were 'old' from Store & therefore have their original GR proof stamps. The only proof stamp that can confidently be ascribed to William is the 'crown/TP/arrow' stamp (sometimes in different config) and that can be found on the few 'new made' barrels from his reign, such as on the Manton P/1833 Cavalry Carbine. His reign was a 'quiet' time for arms manufacture as the old war store was still being 'run down' and experimentation was being conducted on the percussion system. I know carving out the mirror image cypher onto a steel punch to form the stamp must have required a large amount of skill. The stamps appear to have generally been ordered from makers, there are records of purchase but it does seems to have been rather frugal in the way we see old stamps being used much later. There is a Victoria cypher which has been made by removing part of the W from a William cypher. I'll look out the pictures. Tends to support the theory that it took a while for new stamps to get made. I would be most interested to see that - a separate thread perhaps. I doubt it would be a lock plate cypher, due to the engraving method of application at that time. I suspect therefore that you mean the Crown/MR proof stamp which is most often misinterpreted as Crown IVR and ascribed to William IV (Blackmore has that misinterpretation) or as VR and ascribed to Victoria, as it is often mis-struck but is different to her much later VR proof stamp. The Crown/MR stamp actually dates to no later than 1816. (ref Bailey, The Armoury Mills Kent, JAAS Vol 21 No.6)

11th November 2022, 01:33 AM	#3
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 118	You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR. As you suspect it is a VR stamp, if WR it would be too 'off center'.

11th November 2022, 03:10 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Makes sense. Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses? A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark?

11th November 2022, 06:13 AM	#5
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 118	Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses? Not that I recollect, however my interest in cutlasses does not run to any great depth. A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark? Whilst I am familiar with various items & ordnance intended for sea service often bearing the letter 'N' to distinguish that it is for Naval issue those items were Ordnance supplied and as such they bear Ordnance inspection stamps etc. An item dating from the Georgian to the mid/late Victorian period marked RN would therefore get my attention as being outside of this, and if it bore no Ordnance markings then I would consider it to be highly suspect as far as it being a British sea service item. For anything later, I do not know enough to do other than speculate.

11th November 2022, 06:30 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Thanks, Adrian. Just wanted to get your opinion. Perhaps these cutlasses were more of the private purchase type for merchantmen or direct export and the RN might have simply been a maker's stamp?

11th November 2022, 03:20 PM	#8
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 322	Reference the VR cutlass. It was the faded cypher I owned and it was very well used and worn. I spotted the other one go through an auction and stole the pictures. I'm told the crown is correct for the period a James Crown - again my knowledge is limited in that area. It does look similar to the crown on Adrian's two examples and the coastguard with the two crosses at the front of the same period. But it is very different from the GR crown on Mark's 1804 in post 3.

12th November 2022, 04:58 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Thank you for posting that incredible modified WR marking! That really is an interesting adaptation from the original stamp! It is interesting that we obviously have the m1804s that are being used into William's and Victoria's era. No new pattern was created until the forth decade of the 19th, but still the odd fact that the GR was still being found on later pieces. I had heard of the Tower fire, but always assumed it had mostly destroyed the stored guns. I wasn't thinking that there was a cache of the ole m1804's being kept there (duh!). That could explain the re-usage of the earlier blades when the stockpile was depleted and new ones weren't being issued. As Adrian points out, pure speculation, but at least a possible theory to this situation. I confess that it is mostly for selfish reasons why it bothers me! If the GR markings were used later (after Age of Fighting Sail), then they were used in an era where they were obsolescent. Likewise, how does one know if 'this cutlass over here' is of the period, but that one was post-1830 or whatever. I could see questioning the crown-marked Swedish imports or even the unmarked examples. But an 1804 with the GR has always been solidly assumed by most to be of the time period of the two Georges...until now, I guess!