Can we call them Genoui daggers ?

[RobT]

Jim McDougall,

Previously, I have always heard the story that the koummya hilt takes its shape from Nazi Baselard hilted daggers. Your report that the koummya hilt may be based on the Italian cinquedia is a new one on me. in any event (and because I am prone to look at things from a funny angle), is there any evidence to deny the possibility that the cinquedia (and possibly even the baselard) hilts were derived from North African hilt styles?

Sincerely,
RobT

[francantolin]

Hello Ian and Jim,
thank you very much for answer and informations .
Do you have an idea of ​​the production period?
I would say around 1920 1950 , what intrigues me is this blade which is particularly thick and well chiseled to be sharp and pointed not just a basic souvenir object. interestingly, I tested with a magnet, the whole dagger and scabbard is non-magnetic / aluminum and copper brass.
it would have been perfect for pass basics metal detectors

[francantolin]

Sorry RobT ....

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by RobT

Jim McDougall,

Previously, I have always heard the story that the koummya hilt takes its shape from Nazi Baselard hilted daggers. Your report that the koummya hilt may be based on the Italian cinquedia is a new one on me. in any event (and because I am prone to look at things from a funny angle), is there any evidence to deny the possibility that the cinquedea (and possibly even the baselard) hilts were derived from North African hilt styles?

Sincerely,
RobT

Robert, thank you so much for the personal response. You raise interesting points, and having an open approach to investigating the viability of the many apocryphal stories in 'collectors lore' in the best policy. Naturally there is typically little definitive evidence to support most of the subjective views held by various writers and enthusiasts on arms study, so generally held notions must remain technically hypothetical.

In most descriptive reviews of weapons forms, the details of the character of these are noted but seldom are the terms of possible influences mentioned.

My reference to the koummya character was mostly to the 'peacock tail' hilt which is somewhat ubiiquitous in these Maghrebi daggers, however by no means exclusive. In the same way, the cinquedea form (regarding the pommel shape) often have similar shape, therefore the comparison.
As these Italian daggers (of 16th c) had occasion to enter the North African sphere just as blades etc. the influence seems plausible.

I had never heard of the koummya deriving its shape (the hilt of course) having anything to do with these WWII daggers of the third reich, which were themselves modeled after the daggers known as 'Holbein daggers'.
The Holbein daggers were derived from Swiss daggers of the 14th /15th c. known as 'baslers' (hence the baselard deriviation) which became the Swiss dagger of 16thc. These Swiss daggers (which often had the work of artist Hans Holbein on the scabbards) remained in vogue until the baroque period (17th-18th c) .

The regime of the German reich in WWII in thier regalia using classical themes adopted the style of these Swiss (or Holbein) daggers in WWII.

As I believe the koummya hilt form predates WWII, the connection with WWII Germany seems unlikely..................but potential for earlier influence from forms in Europe remain possible......the cinquedea pommel likeness just seems plausible.

1. left, a Moroccan koumyya
2.Italian cinquedea
3. Swiss dagger early 16th c.
4.Swiss basler dagger 14th-15th c
5. 'Holbein' dagger (for artwork typically on scabbards)

[francantolin]

Hello all,

Really interesting,
But can please you make a new post for talk about it

Glad if you have informations about maghreb made bayonet shaped guards or this kind of rounded bone hilt shape