Yet another Tulwar

Miguel · 14th July 2016, 08:22 PM

Hello Everyone,
I would be grateful if anyone could tell me where this Tulwar originated. I have researched quite a lot of previous threads, the internet and reference books but have been unable, so far, to satisfy my curiosity. It is a very plain but I think a very elegant weapon made for combat. Its length and style lead me to think it must be for a cavalryman. The curved, single edged, blade looks European to me and has no ricasso, two broad fullers start at the hilt and run for approx. 18cm before the top fuller splits into two making two narrow fullers which run together with the broad fuller to a distance of approx. 18 cm from the point, there are no marks on the blade or hilt. The hilt is the commonly termed "Indo Muslim" type And seems to be silvered iron or steel. I have tried to find a similar one having the same langet design and also the same style and length of the stem above the disc pommel without success, hence my post.

Overall length is 109 cm, blade length is 93 cm x 4.5 cm wide at the hilt.
Hoping that you can come up with the answer and thanking you in anticipation.
Regards
Miguel

A.alnakkas · 14th July 2016, 11:23 PM

Thats quite an attractive tulwar. I do believe that the blade is a clauberg or an immitation of one. Still a lovely example!

ariel · 15th July 2016, 01:21 AM

Simple but very attractive.
I would try to etch the handle: when I enlarge the pic , there is a faint impression it might be wootz.
Crooked baluster on top of the pommel: where did I hear that it might be Deccan?

Miguel · 15th July 2016, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Simple but very attractive.
I would try to etch the handle: when I enlarge the pic , there is a faint impression it might be wootz.
Crooked baluster on top of the pommel: where did I hear that it might be Deccan?

Thanks Ariel you may be right about the hilt, I thought it may be small dots of pitting. Thanks for the Deccan tip I will investigate.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 18th July 2016, 07:33 PM

Since my last reply I have spent hours searching for a sword with the same hilt without success. Reading all the past threads has proved to be of no avail and I have assumed rightly or wrongly that the lack of response from the more knowledgeable members is that they have said it all on past threads. Following Ariels tip about the Deccan I do believe that this is the most likely place of origin although cannot prove it. Both the Rajputs and Marathas had swords with a bent stem coming out of the pommel disc similar to the one on my sword but not a perfect match. As the hilt is Indo Muslim I lean towards Rajput as I don't think that the Marathas would use this hilt being Hindu, just a feeling no proof. My task is obviously unachievable due to the lack of information available to identify Tulwar hilt designs and the fact that the Indo Muslim hilt form was spread over most of India. I will catalogue it as Indian, Cavalry, sword with Indo Muslim Tulwar hilt fitted with curved single edged blade of European manufacture possibly Clauberg or Indian copy My thanks again to Ariel and A.Anakkas for their replies.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2016, 04:08 AM

Miguel,
I wanted to thank you for mentioning my name in your query, and my apologies for not responding sooner.
This is a very attractive hilt which in its subtle manner seems to be as noted that termed as Indo-Persian, but as well known, efforts to delineate these regionally are often arbitrarily applied and often speculative.

I think Ainakkas has well noted that this blade seems to be European, and most probably German. The Clauberg denominator is plausible but that was just one firm of many supplying various markets from Solingen. The extremely heavy and radiused hatchet type blade suggests the hussar sabres of early 19th c.
I would note here that there were German mercenaries in India, primarily in Deccan with the Nizam of Hyderabad in one case. Like a number of colonial cases these were often termed 'Alemani' swords.

It was from Elgood that a Deccani tegha with similar hilt having the curved stem or spike from the pommel was seen, and the feature was I believe noted to derive from 17th century. Similar 'Indo Persian' type hilts are seen in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour", 1980, p.108) as 'Dungarpuri' which is an area in Rajasthan and a 17th c affectation 'having a curved spike instead of a tang button'.
Pant notes as his reference, a Marathi source ,"Shree Pratap Shastragava", translated by V.C.Tavkar, Baroda, 1948 (p.98, illustr. 52).

While the curved spike is not perpendicular as this one, it is notably similar.

The term 'Deccani' is a broad one, and can be perceived from a geographic term, geo-political, ethnographic and historic as many important dynasties are regarded as Deccani.

Rajasthan is typically of course outside the Deccani designator in most cases, but through connections in other areas may be somewhat aligned.

The exact origins of the so called Indo-Persian hilt remain unclear, however the apparent development from early Indian hilts seen iconographically cannot be overlooked. The hybridization of khanda hilt features and those on tulwars is well established.

I would presume this to likely be a Rajput sword as you have already determined. The Indo-Persian hilt was used not only by Mughals, but Rajputs, Sikhs as for the broader classifications.
It seems to be a mid to latter 18th c hilt with blade of similar period, and possibly matched with this blade possibly early 19th.

I believe Robert Elgood will have his new book out by winter, which will be 2 volumes which I understand will include profound attention to tulwars and more on understanding the dilemmas of their classifications .

With best regards
Jim

Miguel · 15th July 2016, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thats quite an attractive tulwar. I do believe that the blade is a clauberg or an immitation of one. Still a lovely example!

Thank you for your comments. Your observation is interesting but I am unable to agree or disagree as I am not Knowledgeable enough except to say that I have not seen a sword with a Clauberg blade which looks as wide as this one although I can see that some their sabre blades are similarly curved and multi fullered. I am hoping that Jim might offer his thoughts on this sword

Regards
Miguel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2016, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Everyone,
I would be grateful if anyone could tell me where this Tulwar originated. I have researched quite a lot of previous threads, the internet and reference books but have been unable, so far, to satisfy my curiosity. It is a very plain but I think a very elegant weapon made for combat. Its length and style lead me to think it must be for a cavalryman. The curved, single edged, blade looks European to me and has no ricasso, two broad fullers start at the hilt and run for approx. 18cm before the top fuller splits into two making two narrow fullers which run together with the broad fuller to a distance of approx. 18 cm from the point, there are no marks on the blade or hilt. The hilt is the commonly termed "Indo Muslim" type And seems to be silvered iron or steel. I have tried to find a similar one having the same langet design and also the same style and length of the stem above the disc pommel without success, hence my post.

Overall length is 109 cm, blade length is 93 cm x 4.5 cm wide at the hilt.
Hoping that you can come up with the answer and thanking you in anticipation.
Regards
Miguel

I think the style of hilt is Dungarpuri as seen at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17903 which is worth looking at.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2016, 06:37 PM

It is not often that Chivalry is mentioned in terms of Indian sword however I note; For the Delhi Durbar of 1877 Maharaja Nihal Singh was granted an achievement western style:

Miguel · 24th July 2016, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I think the style of hilt is Dungarpuri as seen at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17903 which is worth looking at.

Hello Ibrahiim,

Firstly I must thank you for the time you have spent researching this Tulwar hilt, it is amazing there are so many designs and variations, your input has been much appreciated not only by me I should not wonder. I think that you may have cracked it as the Dungarpuri hilt certainly looks to be the same design. My only reservation is the length and design of the stem emanating from the top of the disc and the flower pattern inside the disc, which I suppose, could vary with the various tribes

Thank you again for your input.
Regards
Miguel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Ibrahiim,

Firstly I must thank you for the time you have spent researching this Tulwar hilt, it is amazing there are so many designs and variations, your input has been much appreciated not only by me I should not wonder. I think that you may have cracked it as the Dungarpuri hilt certainly looks to be the same design. My only reservation is the length and design of the stem emanating from the top of the disc and the flower pattern inside the disc, which I suppose, could vary with the various tribes

Thank you again for your input.
Regards
Miguel

Thank you Miguel; Purely accidentally I stumbled on the hilt form Dungarpuri...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

14th July 2016, 08:22 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Yet another Tulwar Hello Everyone, I would be grateful if anyone could tell me where this Tulwar originated. I have researched quite a lot of previous threads, the internet and reference books but have been unable, so far, to satisfy my curiosity. It is a very plain but I think a very elegant weapon made for combat. Its length and style lead me to think it must be for a cavalryman. The curved, single edged, blade looks European to me and has no ricasso, two broad fullers start at the hilt and run for approx. 18cm before the top fuller splits into two making two narrow fullers which run together with the broad fuller to a distance of approx. 18 cm from the point, there are no marks on the blade or hilt. The hilt is the commonly termed "Indo Muslim" type And seems to be silvered iron or steel. I have tried to find a similar one having the same langet design and also the same style and length of the stem above the disc pommel without success, hence my post. Overall length is 109 cm, blade length is 93 cm x 4.5 cm wide at the hilt. Hoping that you can come up with the answer and thanking you in anticipation. Regards Miguel Attached Images

23rd July 2016, 06:37 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It is not often that Chivalry is mentioned in terms of Indian sword however I note; For the Delhi Durbar of 1877 Maharaja Nihal Singh was granted an achievement western style: Attached Images

14th July 2016, 11:23 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Thats quite an attractive tulwar. I do believe that the blade is a clauberg or an immitation of one. Still a lovely example!

15th July 2016, 01:21 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Simple but very attractive. I would try to etch the handle: when I enlarge the pic , there is a faint impression it might be wootz. Crooked baluster on top of the pommel: where did I hear that it might be Deccan?

18th July 2016, 07:33 PM	#5
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Since my last reply I have spent hours searching for a sword with the same hilt without success. Reading all the past threads has proved to be of no avail and I have assumed rightly or wrongly that the lack of response from the more knowledgeable members is that they have said it all on past threads. Following Ariels tip about the Deccan I do believe that this is the most likely place of origin although cannot prove it. Both the Rajputs and Marathas had swords with a bent stem coming out of the pommel disc similar to the one on my sword but not a perfect match. As the hilt is Indo Muslim I lean towards Rajput as I don't think that the Marathas would use this hilt being Hindu, just a feeling no proof. My task is obviously unachievable due to the lack of information available to identify Tulwar hilt designs and the fact that the Indo Muslim hilt form was spread over most of India. I will catalogue it as Indian, Cavalry, sword with Indo Muslim Tulwar hilt fitted with curved single edged blade of European manufacture possibly Clauberg or Indian copy My thanks again to Ariel and A.Anakkas for their replies. Regards Miguel

19th July 2016, 04:08 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,777	Miguel, I wanted to thank you for mentioning my name in your query, and my apologies for not responding sooner. This is a very attractive hilt which in its subtle manner seems to be as noted that termed as Indo-Persian, but as well known, efforts to delineate these regionally are often arbitrarily applied and often speculative. I think Ainakkas has well noted that this blade seems to be European, and most probably German. The Clauberg denominator is plausible but that was just one firm of many supplying various markets from Solingen. The extremely heavy and radiused hatchet type blade suggests the hussar sabres of early 19th c. I would note here that there were German mercenaries in India, primarily in Deccan with the Nizam of Hyderabad in one case. Like a number of colonial cases these were often termed 'Alemani' swords. It was from Elgood that a Deccani tegha with similar hilt having the curved stem or spike from the pommel was seen, and the feature was I believe noted to derive from 17th century. Similar 'Indo Persian' type hilts are seen in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour", 1980, p.108) as 'Dungarpuri' which is an area in Rajasthan and a 17th c affectation 'having a curved spike instead of a tang button'. Pant notes as his reference, a Marathi source ,"Shree Pratap Shastragava", translated by V.C.Tavkar, Baroda, 1948 (p.98, illustr. 52). While the curved spike is not perpendicular as this one, it is notably similar. The term 'Deccani' is a broad one, and can be perceived from a geographic term, geo-political, ethnographic and historic as many important dynasties are regarded as Deccani. Rajasthan is typically of course outside the Deccani designator in most cases, but through connections in other areas may be somewhat aligned. The exact origins of the so called Indo-Persian hilt remain unclear, however the apparent development from early Indian hilts seen iconographically cannot be overlooked. The hybridization of khanda hilt features and those on tulwars is well established. I would presume this to likely be a Rajput sword as you have already determined. The Indo-Persian hilt was used not only by Mughals, but Rajputs, Sikhs as for the broader classifications. It seems to be a mid to latter 18th c hilt with blade of similar period, and possibly matched with this blade possibly early 19th. I believe Robert Elgood will have his new book out by winter, which will be 2 volumes which I understand will include profound attention to tulwars and more on understanding the dilemmas of their classifications . With best regards Jim