my last keris

[Marcokeris]

please don't misrepresent what i write... i posted the picture taken from the Daphur book just to show why the handle is inside out

[kai]

Hello Marco ,

I'm sincerely trying to understand your comments and also noted that you doubt the cengkrong attribution might be suitable for this keris in post #27.

What I'm trying to bring across is that both dhapur examples were not chosen well since cengkrong/cundrik seem to be treated differently compared to all other keris blades (including mahesa/kebo and, fitting best for your keris, dhuwung). This seems also supported by quite a number of keris from these resembling dhapur families that I've seen.

Actually, I'd be very keen to see how large cengkrong/cundrik blades are fitted into scabbards - those I remember exhibited not as broad blade bases as shown in the reference book.

Thanks for bringing up this point for us all to learn!

Regards,
Kai

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Marco ,

I'm sincerely trying to understand your comments and also noted that you doubt the cengkrong attribution might be suitable for this keris in post #27.

What I'm trying to bring across is that both dhapur examples were not chosen well since cengkrong/cundrik seem to be treated differently compared to all other keris blades (including mahesa/kebo and, fitting best for your keris, dhuwung). This seems also supported by quite a number of keris from these resembling dhapur families that I've seen.

Actually, I'd be very keen to see how large cengkrong/cundrik blades are fitted into scabbards - those I remember exhibited not as broad blade bases as shown in the reference book.

Thanks for bringing up this point for us all to learn!

Regards,
Kai

Kai I agree with the dapur name that the seller wrote to me. but I am just a collector, not a scholar

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

please don't misrepresent what i write... i posted the picture taken from the Daphur book just to show why the handle is inside out

Marco, as others are pointing out, i don't think we are looking at a cengkrong or cundrik, if for no other reason than your blade having what to my eye appears to be a rather well pronounced extra long gandik. Since the seller named this dhapur Maeso Slurung (correctly or not) they seem to have recognized that by placing it in the Mahesa/Kebo family. So the orientation of hilts on cengkrong/cundrik doesn't seem to apply here.
This is what this blade put me in mind of, lacking a kembang kacang of course. At the time of purchase it was identified to me as Kebo Giri Luk Telu. I have also seen Kebo Giri named Mahesa Kanthong.
I do also see much merit with Alan's suggestion of dhapur dhuwung luk lima. While the pakem drawings i have seen of dhapur dhuwung usually suggest a somewhat broader/wider blade the yours it still does seem to fit the suggest ricikan well.
Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Marco, as others are pointing out, i don't think we are looking at a cengkrong or cundrik, if for no other reason than your blade having what to my eye appears to be a rather well pronounced extra long gandik. Since the seller named this dhapur Maeso Slurung (correctly or not) they seem to have recognized that by placing it in the Mahesa/Kebo family. So the orientation of hilts on cengkrong/cundrik doesn't seem to apply here.
This is what this blade put me in mind of, lacking a kembang kacang of course. At the time of purchase it was identified to me as Kebo Giri Luk Telu. I have also seen Kebo Giri named Mahesa Kanthong.
I do also see much merit with Alan's suggestion of dhapur dhuwung luk lima. While the pakem drawings i have seen of dhapur dhuwung usually suggest a somewhat broader/wider blade the yours it still does seem to fit the suggest ricikan well.
Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is.

I repeat: I put the figure taken from the dapur book just to show how the handle should be placed. Sorry for my English. I use goggle translate

[Marcokeris]

please, David can you show me how the keris is inserted in the gajaman?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

please, David can you show me how the keris is inserted in the gajaman?

Hello Marco,

Maybe the given pictures of three from my keris are helpful!
I feel the sarung for your keris is wrong, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, in respect of your post #55.

Please see my post #42.

If we accept that Javanese belief & tradition is correct, rather than the ideas of some craftsman, or salesman then this keris under discussion has been incorrectly mounted to the wrongko.

In my post I have written "--- my understanding ---" that understanding was gained from several keris literate people in Solo whom I knew during the 1980's, all have now left us, and all these people were members of the hierarchy of the Karaton Surakarta Hardiningrat, equally, all these people were devout followers of Javanese tradition.

This keris is most certainly unusual, it is a nice addition to a collection if for no other reason than that it demonstrates the erosion of cultural understanding over time, but it is incorrectly mounted.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marco,

Maybe the given pictures of three from my keris are helpful!
I feel the sarung for your keris is wrong, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef
my keris is like this

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Hello Detlef
my keris is like this

Sorry Marco, but i must point out that your keris is not like this. The keris in the image above is indeed properly oriented in the sheath. It is only the hilt that is oriented in reverse.

[kai]

Hello Marco,

No worries - we're pretty much all students here...

I repeat: I put the figure taken from the dapur book just to show how the handle should be placed.

Yes, but my suggestion is that this specific hilt position is only applicable to cengkrong/cundrik. Not to the mahesa=kebo family of dhapur (including dhuwung).

For example, all blades in Haryoguritno's book "Keris Jawa ..." are shown in standard orientation except for cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I repeat: I put the figure taken from the dapur book just to show how the handle should be placed. Sorry for my English. I use goggle translate

Sorry if you were not able to understand what i was attempting to communicate in my previous post.
As Kai has repeated, the position of the hilt that you show is ONLY correct (at least according to this diagram) for cengkrong and cundrik. I personally do not believe that your blade is either one of those dhapurs, so your diagram does not apply to your keris.
I am sorry that i do not have any better images at this moment to show you how my Kebo Giri fits into the wrongko, but i can assure you it is in the usual manner. You may be able to tell that from this over all image though.
Again, i have NEVER seen a keris fitted to the wrongko in the reverse manner of your keris. I have no idea why anyone would do this.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry if you were not able to understand what i was attempting to communicate in my previous post.
As Kai has repeated, the position of the hilt that you show is ONLY correct (at least according to this diagram) for cengkrong and cundrik. I personally do not believe that your blade is either one of those dhapurs, so your diagram does not apply to your keris.
I am sorry that i do not have any better images at this moment to show you how my Kebo Giri fits into the wrongko, but i can assure you it is in the usual manner. You may be able to tell that from this over all image though.
Again, i have NEVER seen a keris fitted to the wrongko in the reverse manner of your keris. I have no idea why anyone would do this.

because otherwise it is impossible to insert the blade (my blade) correctly in a jogya gayaman and I think it is also impossible in a solo gajaman. It might be possible to fit it into a custom made scabbard...but that would be not a sacrilege but a very great mistake

[kai]

i have NEVER seen a keris fitted to the wrongko in the reverse manner of your keris. I have no idea why anyone would do this.

Well, to be fair, cengkrong/cundrik are (always?) fitted in such a reversed position. And these dhapur are arguably close to the mahesa=kebo family (including dhuwung). I see how it could happen nowadays; I don't think any experienced tukang from tanah Jawa would do this though. But, as mentioned above, I'd be very interested to see examples of cengkrong/cundrik with wide base being fitted!

On a side note, a significant proportion of cengkrong/cundrik coming onto the market in western countries are missing scabbards for whatever reason (arguably, this is also true for antique keris in general and seemingly higher proportions of cengkrong/cundrik may only be a sampling artefact since they are not common). Also quite some seem to come out of western Java: I have no idea what customs regarding these specific dhapur apply for orang Sunda.

Regards,
Kai