Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Miscellania
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th December 2023, 08:29 AM   #1
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 668
Default

I also thought of Prussia but historically their Husars have a skull as a cockade. Like Field Marshall August von Mackensen

2. My thoughts go back to Austrian husars and the reason why:

Netherlands doesn't have a real historical tradition of sweets ( be it religious or cultural wise).

For that one has to go to Belgium, Dutch Limburg and the west to southern part of Germany and not to forget Austria.
Think also the resemblance with Aachener Print !!!

And looking at the uniform and type of sword, Baron Franz von der Trenck comes to my mind who was an officer in service of Maria Theresa of Austria/ the Habsburg Empire.
At a time when parts of Germany, the Austrian Netherlands (parts of the Netherlands and Belgium) belonged to the same empire.

Milos Crnojanski book 'migration"/ German "Panduren" describes these men coming to Brussels and Mechelen in Belgium during the War of the Austrian Succession.
August Flament, chronicle writer of Maastricht also states that Caberg, part of the town at the Belgium border, got sacked by "Croats", being actually pandurs.

Resemblance with the uniform is clear, although I think the cockade is little "artistic"freedom or fantasy by the designer of the plate/mold, as the husars in these parts where this piece of candy comes from do have either Prussian cocackes or others ( French, Spanish)

So fom the time these kind of candy were made, , coincides with having these kind of fancy Habsburgian uniforms around. And lets not forget Germany and Netherlands as we know now did not exist a couple of centuries ago one has the think in the empires of that time 16, 17th century.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by gp; 30th December 2023 at 12:10 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2023, 10:08 PM   #2
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp View Post
I also thought of Prussia but historically their Husars have a skull as a cockade. Like Field Marshall August von Mackensen

.
Apologies; forgot to attach his pics with regards to the uniform and cockade mentioned
Attached Images
  
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2024, 03:00 PM   #3
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 144
Default

Just one correction GP: Only few or one hussar unit had the skull ("black hussars") which meant they won´t grant mercy upon the enemy as far as I know. It was a more or less new thing dating back not that long ago. One of those units was stationed in Danzig (Leibhusaren?) at the turn of the 19/20 th century.

Maybe the depicted hussar is some kind of Protohussar and the artist having no specific unit or person in mind.
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2024, 09:12 PM   #4
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by awdaniec666 View Post
Just one correction GP: Only few or one hussar unit had the skull ("black hussars") which meant they won´t grant mercy upon the enemy as far as I know. It was a more or less new thing dating back not that long ago. One of those units was stationed in Danzig (Leibhusaren?) at the turn of the 19/20 th century..
More on skull and bones:

The Knights Templar organisation, active from the 12th until their demise in 1307, adopted a skull-and-crossbones flag to identify ships belonging to their vast fleet. The later Knights of Malta, made up of many former Templars and using the same flag, became known for piracy. AKA the Skull of Sidon.

https://www.crystalinks.com/skullsidon.html

It is widely believed that the skull and crossbones was first used by the Knights Templar in the Middle Ages.The Templars or Knights Templar, occasionally documented as the Order of the Temple, The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon was the largest charity for nearly two centuries, especially after it was officially endorsed by the Catholic Church in 1129. Its pacifist members became known for many good deeds, and also for the supposed introduction of the Skull and Crossbones.
According to Masonic legend, the skull and crossbones are the bones of Jackes de Molay. In an effort to seize the riches of the Templars, the Church ordered that the society be disbanded. deMolay, the 23rd and last Grand Master of the Knights,was burned alive by the Church. When three Templars came looking for his bones, they found only his skull and femurs. By this time the Templars had become accomplished mariners, and the skull and femurs of the last Grand Master became their nautical symbol – the Jolly Roger.
The legend of the Skull of Sidon also contains some clues to the Jolly Roger’s relationship with the Knights Templar. The Lord of Sidon, himself a Templar, lost his love when she was young.On the night of her burial,the Templar snuck to back to her grave and dug up her body. At the same time, he heard a voice instructing him to return after nine months to find a son. Nine months later, the Templar dug up her grave to find a head resting on the skeleton’s femurs. The same voice told him to guard the head, because it would bless all of his endeavors, and defeat any enemies before it. The symbol of the son, or the skull and crossbones, became the protecting genius for the Templar.
What should be noted here is that the port of Sidon had always nested pirates. Therefore, the skull and the crossbones could have been used as a symbol for the pirate flag before the time of the Knights Templar.

Use of the symbol as a military insignia began with the cavalry of the Prussian army under Frederick the Great. Frederick formed Husaren-Regiment Nr. 5 (von Ruesch), a Hussar regiment commanded by Colonel von Ruesch. These Hussars adopted a black uniform with a Totenkopf emblazoned on the front of their mirlitons and wore it on the field in the War of Austrian Succession and in the Seven Years' War.

In 1808, when the regiment was reformed into Leib-Husaren Regiments Nr.1 and Nr.2, the Totenkopf remained a part of the uniform. During the Napoleonic Wars, when Frederick William, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, was killed in battle, his troops changed the colour of their uniforms to black or apple green, with a Totenkopf on their shakos in mourning their dead leader. Other sources claim that the "Black Brunswickers" were so equipped while Friedrich Wilhelm of Brunswick lived, as a sign of revenge on the French.

The skull continued to be used throughout the Prussian and Brunswick Armed forces until 1918, and some of the stormtroopers that led the last German offensives on the Western Front in 1918 used skull badges.

Two of the well-known units were the Black Hussars and the Brunswickers. The Brunswickers at one time actually had the words "Momento Mori" written on the badge itself. In other words, the skull and bones had the words "Momento Mori written right under it on their uniform. Here is a 19th-century comment on the badge from a Scottish magazine:
Attached Images
 
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2024, 07:14 PM   #5
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp View Post
Apologies; forgot to attach his pics with regards to the uniform and cockade mentioned
just found a colorized picture of the man and his uniform and some more of the princess Viktoria Luise
Attached Images
      
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2024, 07:27 PM   #6
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 668
Default

as on hussars...it seems to be going back to the Balkans...

Border soldiers or granizars / grenzer...local lads protecting the borders and being a buffer. A little different to the Pandurs but similar in roles and resposibilities.
Some reading ; a book by Major General of the Hussars Charles-Emmanuel de Warnery "Remarks On Cavalry "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussar
Attached Images
 

Last edited by gp; 4th February 2024 at 07:46 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2024, 09:04 PM   #7
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 668
Default

some more pics where you can see how the Hussar uniform developed through the centuries and countries...
from Hungary, Serbia, France, to Prussia, Poland and Russia
Attached Images
           

Last edited by gp; 5th February 2024 at 08:35 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2024, 04:13 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,785
Default

This is truly a remarkable thread! and has a wonderfully comprehensive discourse on the 'hussar' phenomenon of the 18th century, the romantic flamboyance of whom, thrilled and intrigued all of Europe.

I will say the introduction title is somewhat misleading with the 'cookie' description, but becomes well understood and placed as we read through the thread. I honestly had never known what a SPEKULATIUS cookie was, but in looking it up......absolutely fascinating!

These traditional cookies seem to be part of early Christmas traditions in the Netherlands in the mid 17th century, possibly earlier. The term apparently means 'German spice cookie' (uh, sweet tooth kickin in!).

Children who were well behaved received batches of these cookies in their shoes on the eve of 5th of December, and anxiously would look in the morning for what 'Sinterclaas' would have left for them.

With the tales of the hussars rich in the lore of the times, it would be well understood that military tradition and themes would be the subject matter in many things. I think of the 'nutcracker' soldiers.

The content of this thread has been more than inspiring, and frankly the baked goods connection here keeps reminding me of schiavona hilt mid European saber c. 1600 (Konipsky & Moudry, 1991. p.21) which has a pommel likened to a pastry from these regions called a 'kosarice'.

The esoteric PANDOUR topic is another brought up here that deserves far more attention (as GP has brought into the thread here, #7).

Just wanted to thank everyone for the great insights and entries here!
Goes to show we never know what contexts will bring us amazing learning on these military themed obscurities.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 11:28 AM   #9
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 668
Default

a nice addition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8kiiLSI0sA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pdoRA9WWas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Z08UaIXZQ
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.