When in India "died" wootz?

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 10:55 AM

I see no one reads closely to each other ... I did not write that after the mid-19th century, preserved the mass production of wootz steel. I fully agrees that economic reasons have led to the disappearance of the mass production of wootz weapons.
But can not talk about the disappearance production of weapons of wootz steelin the middle of the 19th century, as there is evidence proving that the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel produced before the end of the 19th century.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 01:21 PM

How does "middle of the 19th century" differ from " before the end of the 19th century"?

And what is the relevance of Central Asia to the original question of Indian wootz?

As we speak, dozens of bladesmiths around the world ( India included) produce wootz of variable quality. Is it an argument in favor of " wootz manufacture never died" proposition?

Is it possible to be more precise in posing questions and choosing arguments?

Just curious.

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 06:52 PM

To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential.
Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 08:04 PM

I fully agree: wootz production in India "died" sometimes between 1850-1899 .
That was said multiple times before. Shall we go in the middle , agree on June 30, 1874 and leave it like that?

Unless, of course, notarized letters of eye witnesses of actual forging can be presented:-) Could, would and should have no evidentiary value.

Taking into account that most of Central Asian wootz blades were of obvious Persian manufacture, that several informers mention Persian origin of wootz CA blades, and that, AFAIK, there is no well-documented evidence of wootz production there, aside of Ann Feuerbach's finding of ancient crucibles, the continuation of wootz production in the Khanates and in Afghanistan at the above-mentioned period is not proven.

Continuing this discussion is akin to a sandbox argument who would win in a wrestling match : a whale or an elephant?

Count me out:-)))))

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 08:26 PM

The fact that someone has not yet proved the fact of wootz steel production in the late 19th century in Central Asia and Afghanistan, does not mean that it was not. There is growing evidence to prove that at the end of the 19th century in this region produced of wootz weapons .

But, of course, can believe the old dogmas

Of course it is easier than most to analyze and carry out research)))))

So I think really, to continue the discussion does not make sense.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 10:00 PM

Yup, I am into old dogmas of factual evidence.
Please continue your "research" and enlighten us with your "discoveries" when they are ripe enough for informed discussion.
BTW, how is your theory on dating Afghani weapons by the presence or absence of brass elements? Still working on it? I am still intrigued by it.

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yup, I am into old dogmas of factual evidence.
Please continue your "research" and enlighten us with your "discoveries" when they are ripe enough for informed discussion.
BTW, how is your theory on dating Afghani weapons by the presence or absence of brass elements? Still working on it? I am still intrigued by it.

Do not worry. Once an article is finally ready, I will introduce it in English.

And you continue to hold on to the old "information", although as it turns out that often "It’s still all up in the air"

17th April 2016, 10:55 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I see no one reads closely to each other ... I did not write that after the mid-19th century, preserved the mass production of wootz steel. I fully agrees that economic reasons have led to the disappearance of the mass production of wootz weapons. But can not talk about the disappearance production of weapons of wootz steelin the middle of the 19th century, as there is evidence proving that the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel produced before the end of the 19th century.

17th April 2016, 01:21 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How does "middle of the 19th century" differ from " before the end of the 19th century"? And what is the relevance of Central Asia to the original question of Indian wootz? As we speak, dozens of bladesmiths around the world ( India included) produce wootz of variable quality. Is it an argument in favor of " wootz manufacture never died" proposition? Is it possible to be more precise in posing questions and choosing arguments? Just curious.

17th April 2016, 06:52 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential. Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

17th April 2016, 08:04 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree: wootz production in India "died" sometimes between 1850-1899 . That was said multiple times before. Shall we go in the middle , agree on June 30, 1874 and leave it like that? Unless, of course, notarized letters of eye witnesses of actual forging can be presented:-) Could, would and should have no evidentiary value. Taking into account that most of Central Asian wootz blades were of obvious Persian manufacture, that several informers mention Persian origin of wootz CA blades, and that, AFAIK, there is no well-documented evidence of wootz production there, aside of Ann Feuerbach's finding of ancient crucibles, the continuation of wootz production in the Khanates and in Afghanistan at the above-mentioned period is not proven. Continuing this discussion is akin to a sandbox argument who would win in a wrestling match : a whale or an elephant? Count me out:-)))))

17th April 2016, 08:26 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	The fact that someone has not yet proved the fact of wootz steel production in the late 19th century in Central Asia and Afghanistan, does not mean that it was not. There is growing evidence to prove that at the end of the 19th century in this region produced of wootz weapons . But, of course, can believe the old dogmas Of course it is easier than most to analyze and carry out research))))) So I think really, to continue the discussion does not make sense.

17th April 2016, 10:00 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yup, I am into old dogmas of factual evidence. Please continue your "research" and enlighten us with your "discoveries" when they are ripe enough for informed discussion. BTW, how is your theory on dating Afghani weapons by the presence or absence of brass elements? Still working on it? I am still intrigued by it.