Caucasian Kindjal for comment

Gavin Nugent · 18th May 2008, 05:02 AM

Here are some more photos of the craftsmanship.

regards

Gav

Jeff Pringle · 18th May 2008, 07:01 AM

Gav,
I apologize in advance for disagreeing with your use of the word, and I don’t mean to cast aspersions on your kindjal which looks much better than most I’ve seen, but I’m afraid you are overly generous in calling that ‘craftsmanship,’ especially of the old world variety; have a look at the links below and see if you don’t agree that a slight change in the final consonant might be in order:
Silver/niello kindjals, which display varying degrees of craftsmanship, but definitely some care in their manufacture:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1728
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2377
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1150

Gavin Nugent · 18th May 2008, 07:23 AM

No need for apologies Jeff.

They certainly are great examples of Kindjals shown in Oriental Arms.

What would your experinece say about this piece though? Photographic comparisons are good and well, but alas, what can you tell me about this piece and of it's particular style and construction?

If it is not craftsmanship, what is it???

regards

Gav

Jeff Pringle · 18th May 2008, 08:39 AM

Well, it is as if they still had the workshop set up, the materials and tools at hand, and a basic knowledge of the techniques involved, but some how the desire or ability to do the work well had left the building. Note the choppy feel of the engraving, the uneven, ‘hacked-in’ look to it and the niello, miscuts and poor stops and starts everywhere; the lack of definition between the foreground and background; uneven depth of the background and lack of care in background texture – it is as if the master of the shop had died unexpectedly and a first or second year apprentice was left in charge, but he had a drinking problem and a hot date set up that evening so he was really just not paying attention…or maybe it is just the last gasp of a dying tradition, when even those who had devoted their lives to it had finally realized the ultimate futility of hand work in the machine age?

Gavin Nugent · 18th May 2008, 09:16 AM

Hi Jeff, thanks for the humour, sad and of no help with further identification, but funny.

In this age I find that people seem to find it so easy to criticise with out offering anything of worth, from my experience in all continents with all arms makers and embellishers of the weapons accruements there is a vast varying degree of design and execution of skill but the functionality weapons remains the same.

If you were a craftsman and I came to you and said I had $100 dollars to commission a piece, you would not invest a $1000 worth of effort would you?
I am sure there are others here who can actually offer up information about this item that are entirely factual, where we all as collectors can learn.

I await with interest further input from those in the know as I want to learn from this piece not suffer unsubstantiated negative comments, if you think this was made in 1980 and is of no value, tell me and substantiate it, other, save you fingers.

regards

Gav

ALEX · 18th May 2008, 12:31 PM

Gav and all, I totally agree with Jeff !!!
I understand your desire to learn the facts and see direct references. Hovewer, the general feeling about the item is very crucial factor, and it comes only with experience of handling, comparing and studying them. What Jeff has said makes lots of sense - he speaks out of experience, and it aint's humor in any way! The "old workmanship" is hard to describe in words - one has to simply "feel" it. Your kindjal lacks it indeed. The last picture, for example, shows zigzag pattern which id done by using a simple screw-driver; this "quicky" method is still used nowadays, and is sign of "low" quality production, just as the pattern being unaccurately traced throughout. I even can tell the tools being used were dull, and of low grade:-). As you said - if one invests $100 to produce it - it'll not look like $1000, and this is what it is

Also, Jeff provided an honest opinion and substantial references - and he deserves little more respect!

Henk · 18th May 2008, 01:49 PM

Gav,

I completely agree with Jeff and absolutely with Alex. Although this is not my field, I can see what Jeff and Alex are saying. Your reaction to Jeff is wrong.
Don't put your head in the sand and look again to the pictures of the Oriental Arms Kindjals, Jeff showed you. The differences are obvious and has nothing to do with a $100 or $1000 production.

Don't pour out your disapointment on your fellow forummembers when something is not what you hoped for.

ward · 18th May 2008, 02:09 PM

Gav you have to understand. I have handled thousands of pieces over the years and so have some of the other members. Half the time you can just give a quick look and tell if a piece is realitively new. Jeff gave you a well thought out very polite opinion. Your piece looks late 20th century the reasons given before seem correct. The work is sloppy and done as quickly as possible. The niello is poorly applied. You see a lot of this coming out of turkey. The piece is what it is. You have to be critical on pieces it is the only way you learn the difference between quality pieces and tourist and reproduction pieces.

18th May 2008, 05:02 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	some more photos. Here are some more photos of the craftsmanship. regards Gav Attached Images

18th May 2008, 07:01 AM	#2
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Gav, I apologize in advance for disagreeing with your use of the word, and I don’t mean to cast aspersions on your kindjal which looks much better than most I’ve seen, but I’m afraid you are overly generous in calling that ‘craftsmanship,’ especially of the old world variety; have a look at the links below and see if you don’t agree that a slight change in the final consonant might be in order: Silver/niello kindjals, which display varying degrees of craftsmanship, but definitely some care in their manufacture: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1728 http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2377 http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1150 Last edited by Jeff Pringle; 18th May 2008 at 08:11 AM.

18th May 2008, 07:23 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Jeff. No need for apologies Jeff. They certainly are great examples of Kindjals shown in Oriental Arms. What would your experinece say about this piece though? Photographic comparisons are good and well, but alas, what can you tell me about this piece and of it's particular style and construction? If it is not craftsmanship, what is it??? regards Gav

18th May 2008, 09:16 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Awaiting some imforative input Hi Jeff, thanks for the humour, sad and of no help with further identification, but funny. In this age I find that people seem to find it so easy to criticise with out offering anything of worth, from my experience in all continents with all arms makers and embellishers of the weapons accruements there is a vast varying degree of design and execution of skill but the functionality weapons remains the same. If you were a craftsman and I came to you and said I had $100 dollars to commission a piece, you would not invest a $1000 worth of effort would you? I am sure there are others here who can actually offer up information about this item that are entirely factual, where we all as collectors can learn. I await with interest further input from those in the know as I want to learn from this piece not suffer unsubstantiated negative comments, if you think this was made in 1980 and is of no value, tell me and substantiate it, other, save you fingers. regards Gav

18th May 2008, 08:39 AM	#4
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Well, it is as if they still had the workshop set up, the materials and tools at hand, and a basic knowledge of the techniques involved, but some how the desire or ability to do the work well had left the building. Note the choppy feel of the engraving, the uneven, ‘hacked-in’ look to it and the niello, miscuts and poor stops and starts everywhere; the lack of definition between the foreground and background; uneven depth of the background and lack of care in background texture – it is as if the master of the shop had died unexpectedly and a first or second year apprentice was left in charge, but he had a drinking problem and a hot date set up that evening so he was really just not paying attention…or maybe it is just the last gasp of a dying tradition, when even those who had devoted their lives to it had finally realized the ultimate futility of hand work in the machine age?

18th May 2008, 12:31 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Gav and all, I totally agree with Jeff !!! I understand your desire to learn the facts and see direct references. Hovewer, the general feeling about the item is very crucial factor, and it comes only with experience of handling, comparing and studying them. What Jeff has said makes lots of sense - he speaks out of experience, and it aint's humor in any way! The "old workmanship" is hard to describe in words - one has to simply "feel" it. Your kindjal lacks it indeed. The last picture, for example, shows zigzag pattern which id done by using a simple screw-driver; this "quicky" method is still used nowadays, and is sign of "low" quality production, just as the pattern being unaccurately traced throughout. I even can tell the tools being used were dull, and of low grade:-). As you said - if one invests $100 to produce it - it'll not look like $1000, and this is what it is Also, Jeff provided an honest opinion and substantial references - and he deserves little more respect!

18th May 2008, 01:49 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gav, I completely agree with Jeff and absolutely with Alex. Although this is not my field, I can see what Jeff and Alex are saying. Your reaction to Jeff is wrong. Don't put your head in the sand and look again to the pictures of the Oriental Arms Kindjals, Jeff showed you. The differences are obvious and has nothing to do with a $100 or $1000 production. Don't pour out your disapointment on your fellow forummembers when something is not what you hoped for.

18th May 2008, 02:09 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Gav you have to understand. I have handled thousands of pieces over the years and so have some of the other members. Half the time you can just give a quick look and tell if a piece is realitively new. Jeff gave you a well thought out very polite opinion. Your piece looks late 20th century the reasons given before seem correct. The work is sloppy and done as quickly as possible. The niello is poorly applied. You see a lot of this coming out of turkey. The piece is what it is. You have to be critical on pieces it is the only way you learn the difference between quality pieces and tourist and reproduction pieces.