Hilt Identification

[A. G. Maisey]

It might well be so Detlef, but other people have had other ideas.

For myself, I do not know, & that's why I'm looking for some certainty.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

No convincing, much less any confident opinion from my side, I'm afraid.

Pics from more angles may help. How old would you estimate this hilt to be? (From the pic, the carving quality doesn't seem to be especially high...)

However, in my opinion, any similarity would need to be really close to allow for any reasonable inference on its origin (or even possible meaning).

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Hello Alan,

You have presented a real test. Like most who have posted already, I don't recognize this pommel. However, I would like to comment on what we can see of the rest of this hilt. The grip area seems to be hexagonal in cross-section. That strikes me as unusual for an Indonesian bladed weapon or tool. You are far more expert on Indonesian knives and swords than anyone here, so perhaps you could comment on this feature of your hilt.

Multifaceted hilts are very common in the Philippines, and I wonder whether there is a multicultural aspect to this hilt. If your hilt were a recognized pattern, you would have found an answer to its origins by now. It seems to be unique. For me, that always raises the possibility of a multicultural item that has been influenced by an element foreign to the local one.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Kai & Ian.

Ian, the rest of the stem section of the hilt is exactly the same as you can see in the photograph. Faceted hilts are very common in Indonesia, especially in Jawa, the dominant Javanese keris hilt is faceted, as is the hilt of the wedung, and the many small work knives of Jawa & Bali also frequently have faceted hilts.

Kai, I do have some info that relates to date & time of purchase in Indonesia, however, I wanted to keep this out of the discussion because what I am seeking is an opinion that can be substantiated, perhaps from authoritative source material.
In respect of carving quality, I would classify the quality of carving execution as high, but design as simple.

Similarly, the weapon itself must be kept out of discussion.

What I'm hoping for is somebody who has either lived in the area where this form is known, or visited it, or has seen the form published. An opinion that can be substantiated with evidence, or with logical argument.

If I were to accept simply the point of original acquisition as a reasonable indicator of origin I might opt for that place, but my mind does not work in this way.

However, I can state with some degree of certainty that this hilt does pre-date 1920, & that it was purchased in the area of the world that is now known as Indonesia.

[Athanase]

Hello,

The finesse and straightness of the gripping part reminds me more of the Filipino handles (talibong or pira etc...).
If it's Indonesian, I was seeing something from Sumatra and more from the first half of the 20th century. The pattern reminds me of what you can see on certain batak and minang floral engravings but never on handles.
A very stylized Nias balato grip is also a solution but the Timor group D grips are really very close and would perhaps be the best solution.

It's really not easy!

[kino]

Here’s a dagger hilt from Mindanao. I’m guessing Lanao area and last quarter of 20th century manufacture.
It has some resemblance in a way.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Athanase & Kino.

We now have a pretty good collection of opinions here, & combined with the ones that I already had prior to beginning this thread we have certainly covered a wide area.

Perhaps it is time for me to tell what I do know for certain.

I have had the dagger that this hilt forms a part of since 1953. In 1953 I was 12 years old, and my grandfather gave me his edged weapon collection, most of which had been collected during his journey back to Australia from England, after the cessation of WWI.

He had purchased this dagger in Medan, Sumatera, in 1920.

Between about 1980 & 2000 a number of Indonesian friends & associates have seen photos of this dagger, & none have identified it as Javanese, but several have commented that it was very probably made for somebody who had a strong connection with the Colonial Government or who had a Dutch or other European employer, or who was a member of a kraton sub-society.

They had formed this opinion because the belt hook is in the form of an acorn. Indigenous people who were in the employ of Europeans, during the Colonial era, often included motifs with a European reference into their dress. Think of the Madura keris dress from this era, and the royal alterations to formal clothing.

None of the Indonesian people who have seen the photo of this dagger were able to name with any degree of certainty its point of origin. None of these people were involved with the overall art of Indonesia, but all were very knowledgeable in matters to do with Javanese weaponry.

I have a fairly comprehensive library of books that deal with Indonesian art, craft & sculpture. I cannot find any pictures of any objects that are precisely the same as the design motif of this hilt.

However, I can find elements of this design motif in objects that originate from Sumatera, Nias(Nias is actually a part of North Sumatera), North Jawa, Madura, & Kalimantan. Kalimantan gets the most hits.

The opinions expressed in response to my question name a number of places as possible points of origin, but nobody has expressed a firm opinion. Currently we have:-
Nias, Mindanao, Sunda, Sumatera, Lombok, Philippines, Timor.

I apologise for being unable to show the complete dagger, but this would infringe Forum rules, apart from which it would also be something that I would consider to be unethical behaviour.

I thank you all for your opinions, but I guess that for the moment point of origin of this design motif will have to remain unknown.

[Ian]

Alan,

The collective experience expressed here is drawing a blank to your very precise question. I assume there is no blade to go with this hilt. Has the hilt ever been used? If not, then perhaps it is not completely finished and the end that we can see was intended to be worked on further into a more recognisable form. Mention has been made that the "stem" appears well finished and precisely carved, while the end seems rougher in appearance.

EDIT: Sorry, I posted before reading your most recent post. So there is a blade to go with this hilt. This forum does ask that a picture of the entire item be provided in order to facilitate answers to identification questions and for reference in the archives. It is interesting to note the possible multicultural context of the knife and its history. As noted above, "... It seems to be unique. For me, that always raises the possibility of a multicultural item that has been influenced by an element foreign to the local one."

A picture of the scabbard may yield more information that the hilt, particularly if it has features consistent with Spanish influences.