Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th January 2020, 04:30 PM

From the superb additions and at #70 on Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf by Andrea Ferraro89

see Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf on the web...

Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf

Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf ash-Shami al-Asadi was an Ottoman polymath active in Cairo and Istanbul. He was the author of more than ninety books on a wide variety of subjects, including astronomy, clocks, engineering, mathematics, mechanics, optics and natural philosophy. In 1574 the Ottoman Sultan Murad III invited Taqī ad-Dīn to build the Constantinople observatory. Using his exceptional knowledge in the mechanical arts, Taqī ad-Dīn constructed instruments like huge armillary and mechanical clocks that he used in his observations of the Great Comet of 1577. He also used European celestial and terrestrial globes that were delivered to Istanbul in gift-exchange. The major work that resulted from his work in the observatory is titled "The tree of ultimate knowledge in the Kingdom of the Revolving Spheres: The astronomical tables of the King of Kings". The work was prepared according to the results of the observations carried out in Egypt and Istanbul in order to correct and complete Ulugh Beg’s Zij as-Sultani. The first 40 pages of the work deal with calculations, followed by discussions of astronomical clocks, heavenly circles, and information about three eclipses which he observed at Cairo and Istanbul. For corroborating data of other observations of eclipses in other locales like Daud ar-Riyyadi, David Ben-Shushan of Salonika.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2020, 07:06 PM

Giovanni, please never presume that the kind of detail and material you have so generously placed here is 'boring' or any such nonsense!

While there is certainly a spectrum of readers here whose scope in their degree of interest varies, there are many of us who look to the historical and investigative aspects, and very much appreciate your work.

Others are interested mostly in the collecting aspects of weapons, and look for typology and classification primarily as they assemble their groupings in chosen fields.

Often the study of weapons leads into unexpected related areas, such as the control of steel in the Italian regions you are describing, and surprisingly, and seemingly 'foreign' awareness of it by the Ottoman's as detailed by Ibrahiim.

This reminds us that true investigative study is not confined to the topic at hand rigidly, and often key clues are found in remarkably different contexts. One good analogy toward this is finding hints in analyzing cyphers and marks or inscriptions on blades from period coins of considered regions.

As one here who, as Fernando notes, has been very keen on markings for more years than I can say, this profound attention to the ANDREA FERARA and Belluno conundrums is great!

What Jens notes on the deterioration of marking stamps is very pertinent, and we have seen for example, in Sudan, the twin moon mark on the kaskara and takouba swords in many cases took very different character over years. This was from degeneration, and remade stamps not having the same nuances.

While makers probably faced these dilemmas with stamps, they also fashioned variations as their families entered the craft or other workers joined. To compound this, as always, were the spurious uses of marks.

Evgeny_K · 29th January 2020, 09:44 AM

Dear colleagues,
Looking for your help with this mark on the schiavona's blade which looks similar, but not the same.

Evgeny_K · 29th January 2020, 03:34 PM

It looks like this one:

fernando · 29th January 2020, 04:09 PM

... And why not ?

.

Evgeny_K · 30th January 2020, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... And why not ?

.

AndreaFeraro89 · 30th January 2020, 08:15 PM

@Evgeny_K In my modest opinion seems to be from Belluno area like many others.
I agree with you about this one is particular because presents more edges than classical ones.
The big big problem about Venetian Republic swordsmiths has been that for many century they have been forgotten so you will find many old (and new) books that says Andrea Ferara was German, Scottish, Spanish... and many marks attributed to Solingen production or Toledo.
For example about baskethilts swords, many blades bears the name Andrea Ferara, many of them with incorrect spelling because they are imitating the original blades that comes in Scottish market in XVI century that are genuine Andrea Ferara blades.
So in Scotland they are still persuaded that this blade are made in germany, and they do not know nothing about the real story of the name.
So, about marks, it would be better to take carefully indication about provenance of some blades...

To finish, in my opinion is a Belunese blade (could we take a look to the rest of the sword?)

@Ibrahiim al Balooshi Thanks for details about his life, he has been a great scientist and engineer for sure!

@Jens Nordlunde. I have a restorer formation before than a blacksmith and I can adfirm that I find pretty hard that the indian smith were able to make an exact copy of a mark. Not only indian but every smith I know armound the world. Take a look to the fake Andrea Ferara blades for Scottish market

Cheers
Giovanni

29th January 2020, 09:44 AM	#3
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 206	Dear colleagues, Looking for your help with this mark on the schiavona's blade which looks similar, but not the same. Attached Images

29th January 2020, 03:34 PM	#4
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 206	It looks like this one: Attached Images

26th January 2020, 04:30 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	From the superb additions and at #70 on Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf by Andrea Ferraro89 see Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf on the web... Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf ash-Shami al-Asadi was an Ottoman polymath active in Cairo and Istanbul. He was the author of more than ninety books on a wide variety of subjects, including astronomy, clocks, engineering, mathematics, mechanics, optics and natural philosophy. In 1574 the Ottoman Sultan Murad III invited Taqī ad-Dīn to build the Constantinople observatory. Using his exceptional knowledge in the mechanical arts, Taqī ad-Dīn constructed instruments like huge armillary and mechanical clocks that he used in his observations of the Great Comet of 1577. He also used European celestial and terrestrial globes that were delivered to Istanbul in gift-exchange. The major work that resulted from his work in the observatory is titled "The tree of ultimate knowledge in the Kingdom of the Revolving Spheres: The astronomical tables of the King of Kings". The work was prepared according to the results of the observations carried out in Egypt and Istanbul in order to correct and complete Ulugh Beg’s Zij as-Sultani. The first 40 pages of the work deal with calculations, followed by discussions of astronomical clocks, heavenly circles, and information about three eclipses which he observed at Cairo and Istanbul. For corroborating data of other observations of eclipses in other locales like Daud ar-Riyyadi, David Ben-Shushan of Salonika.

26th January 2020, 07:06 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Giovanni, please never presume that the kind of detail and material you have so generously placed here is 'boring' or any such nonsense! While there is certainly a spectrum of readers here whose scope in their degree of interest varies, there are many of us who look to the historical and investigative aspects, and very much appreciate your work. Others are interested mostly in the collecting aspects of weapons, and look for typology and classification primarily as they assemble their groupings in chosen fields. Often the study of weapons leads into unexpected related areas, such as the control of steel in the Italian regions you are describing, and surprisingly, and seemingly 'foreign' awareness of it by the Ottoman's as detailed by Ibrahiim. This reminds us that true investigative study is not confined to the topic at hand rigidly, and often key clues are found in remarkably different contexts. One good analogy toward this is finding hints in analyzing cyphers and marks or inscriptions on blades from period coins of considered regions. As one here who, as Fernando notes, has been very keen on markings for more years than I can say, this profound attention to the ANDREA FERARA and Belluno conundrums is great! What Jens notes on the deterioration of marking stamps is very pertinent, and we have seen for example, in Sudan, the twin moon mark on the kaskara and takouba swords in many cases took very different character over years. This was from degeneration, and remade stamps not having the same nuances. While makers probably faced these dilemmas with stamps, they also fashioned variations as their families entered the craft or other workers joined. To compound this, as always, were the spurious uses of marks.

29th January 2020, 04:09 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	... And why not ? .

30th January 2020, 08:15 PM	#7
AndreaFeraro89 Member Join Date: Jan 2020 Posts: 13	@Evgeny_K In my modest opinion seems to be from Belluno area like many others. I agree with you about this one is particular because presents more edges than classical ones. The big big problem about Venetian Republic swordsmiths has been that for many century they have been forgotten so you will find many old (and new) books that says Andrea Ferara was German, Scottish, Spanish... and many marks attributed to Solingen production or Toledo. For example about baskethilts swords, many blades bears the name Andrea Ferara, many of them with incorrect spelling because they are imitating the original blades that comes in Scottish market in XVI century that are genuine Andrea Ferara blades. So in Scotland they are still persuaded that this blade are made in germany, and they do not know nothing about the real story of the name. So, about marks, it would be better to take carefully indication about provenance of some blades... To finish, in my opinion is a Belunese blade (could we take a look to the rest of the sword?) @Ibrahiim al Balooshi Thanks for details about his life, he has been a great scientist and engineer for sure! @Jens Nordlunde. I have a restorer formation before than a blacksmith and I can adfirm that I find pretty hard that the indian smith were able to make an exact copy of a mark. Not only indian but every smith I know armound the world. Take a look to the fake Andrea Ferara blades for Scottish market Cheers Giovanni