Spanish Dirk?

M ELEY · 4th July 2020, 03:55 AM

Hello Richard. I also had wondered about a repurposed spear-head, but was afraid to propose it as it is not my area of expertise. I've had a dagger fashioned from a Malay spear-head and I know such weapons exist.

carlos · 4th July 2020, 09:51 AM

My first impression was filipino origen, the spanish dagger. mainly from the Albacete city, have different guards.
Thanks
Carlos

shayde78 · 5th July 2020, 04:27 AM

Some very compelling insights - thank you everyone! my inability to clearly classify this feels validated

The hilt still looks Spanish to me, but the idea of the blade being a spear head bears consideration. The overall profile does look like certain tombaks, although that would correspond with a broader Indonesian origin. I tend to see these with distinct pamour, but I'm certain many were forged of homogeneous steel.

Another thought that occurred to me - this would probably serve the purpose of a marlin spike. The mighty Wikipedia states these could be over 12" in length and would double as an offensive weapon, when needed. In this case, a dagger that could be used for marline rope work, rather than a spike being used as an improvised weapon.

Thanks again, and I'm curious to see how this conversation progresses. If the consensus builds that this is not European, I'm gonna with this being moved over to the Ethno section.

M ELEY · 5th July 2020, 08:48 AM

Exactly, Shayde, concerning origin. You are right about the tombak and the beautiful pamour to those spear heads. I also agree concerning the Spanish Albacete style hilt, but with Spanish and Portuguese colonialism and presence in so many of these areas (Philippines, Indonesia, Brunai, etc), a marriage of blade and hilt is not unheard-of. Marlin spikes, whale blubber knives, belay pins, etc, all made great weapons in a fight on the deck. The late, great Gilkerson mentions as much and includes examples of such usage during boardings. I am also curious to see where this artifact will lead us next!

Richard G · 6th July 2020, 12:35 PM

Look at the bundiak spear just posted on the Ethnographic forum.
Regards
Richard

shayde78 · 6th July 2020, 02:04 PM

Thanks Richard!
The buniak spear you reference doesn't quite have the same blade profile, and it looks like it might be mounted by a socket vs. a tang? Still, there is some similarity, so not a bad lead, and I will have to look up additional images to see if there are examples that more closely resemble the 'dirk' in question.

shayde78 · 11th July 2020, 02:56 AM

So, I've been scouring this site and others for any spear heads that match this profile, but to no avail. Nearly every spear head starts barely wider than the tang, then swells to the thicker part of the head before narrowing to the tip.

The blade on the knife in question begins, right at the guard, as wide as it ever gets. It THEN narrows in the scallops of the ricasso, before regaining the same width. It someone can find a spear head with this pattern/profile, that would truly narrow down a place of origin. Otherwise, I'm back to thinking it was always intended to be a knife blade rather than a repurposed spear.

fernando · 23rd July 2020, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

If the consensus builds that this is not European, I'm gonna with this being moved over to the Ethno section.

Rob, if you wish this thread to be moved over to Ethno or if you want it to be copied over there (without leaving here), just say it.
By the way, if i may reveal my impressions, the shape of your 'dagger's' grip only by coincidence resembles those from Albacete; but i may be talking nonsense.
In the attached work, which you can find in free PDF format in the Net (to heavy too upload here), even not knowing Spanish, you will have an idea of how these handles are shaped ... and built.

.

shayde78 · 23rd July 2020, 09:06 PM

Thank you, Philip and Fernando. Again, my attribution of this piece to Spain was based upon the hilt bearing similarities to other knives made in the region, including the example I provided from the reference book. Nothing matched entirely, which is why I wanted to seek feedback here.

I'm grateful if this thread could be copied onto the Ethnographic forum. I still have yet to see a spear that matches this profile, but someone there likely has, and can narrow down an origin. I've yet to be convinced it isn't European in origin, so copying it to the other forum may provide that evidence. So,a s I type that, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to have two threads. So, perhaps it could be moved and, if a non-European origin isn't established, we could discuss moving it back here. I'll let you, as a moderator, decide what is best.

Philip, I agree it is a long shot, and the similarities are not extensive, BUT the profile of the pugio does indeed have some parallels to the dagger in question. In fact, more so than anything else I've been able to find, at least regarding the junction with the hilt and the concave ricasso. Great point to make, even if there is no direct link, it is interesting to see certain forms represented/repeated on disparate pieces.

Thanks again

fernando · 23rd July 2020, 09:14 PM

Let's just move it, then.

Richard G · 24th July 2020, 01:52 PM

I hope I can attach some photo's
One from Ashoka Arts of what they describe as a Thai spear with the same type of 'quatrefoil' guard.
And two of modern Thai daggers that have the same sort of 'spearhead blade'
Regards
Richard

Philip · 25th July 2020, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Thank you, Philip and Fernando. Again, my attribution of this piece to Spain was based upon the hilt bearing similarities to other knives made in the region, including the example I provided from the reference book. Nothing matched entirely, which is why I wanted to seek feedback here.

Philip, I agree it is a long shot, and the similarities are not extensive, BUT the profile of the pugio does indeed have some parallels to the dagger in question. In fact, more so than anything else I've been able to find, at least regarding the junction with the hilt and the concave ricasso. Great point to make, even if there is no direct link, it is interesting to see certain forms represented/repeated on disparate pieces.

Thanks again

Yes, I don't dispute that going from pugio to this is a very far reach. But I figured it might be worth throwing out there anyway.

Having looked at the other contributions, showing certain analogies to Thai dagger, Philippine knives, and guards on Thai lances, those are intriguing and history shows that those cultural areas were, over time, affected by influences from Europe (think Portugal, Spain, and the Netherlands). So we can't definitely rule out anything. After all, we see Sri Lankan polearms with heads clearly patterned after European partizans of the 16th cent., and French bush knives of the 19th cent. with falchion-like blades (douk-douk) shaped just like those on Vietnamese weapons (dao truong)

In particular, I can't but help notice that the barrel-shaped form of the grip, with ferrules, is one of those elements: lots of central and northern Philippine knives seem to have it, as well as those plug-bayonet-like hunting knives popular in 16th-17th cent. southern Europe. But what about the WORKMANSHIP AND DECORATION of the hilt of the dagger that is the subject of this thread -- the longitudinal ribbing with applied metal inlays?

A very similar style appears on the hilt of the Spanish knife illustrated in the image out of the book which was posted earlier. Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen this decorative technique on the hilt of one of those Philippine or Thai daggers which otherwise have a strong resemblance?

I've noticed close-spaced longitudinal ribbing on the ebony or rosewood grips of some Vietnamese and southern Chinese fighting knives but none of those exhibit any metal inlay.

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2020, 07:09 PM

It is most interesting to read these very astute entries with observations showing various possibilities with combined influences from numerous countries and regions. With the profound trade and colonialism in the places noted, I think it is important to remember that artisans from these many places often were relocated in these situations, and the combining of their favored styling and designs were inevitably inherent in the weapons they fashioned.

This is one of the intrigues of studying ethnographic weapons, the noting and identifying of these elements into a kind of fabric incorporating the cultures and influences represented in the weapon at hand.

In such weapons, a concise or specific classification is often not feasible, but better identified to the majority category with subsequent features added.

24th July 2020, 01:52 PM	#11
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	I hope I can attach some photo's One from Ashoka Arts of what they describe as a Thai spear with the same type of 'quatrefoil' guard. And two of modern Thai daggers that have the same sort of 'spearhead blade' Regards Richard Attached Images

4th July 2020, 03:55 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Hello Richard. I also had wondered about a repurposed spear-head, but was afraid to propose it as it is not my area of expertise. I've had a dagger fashioned from a Malay spear-head and I know such weapons exist.

4th July 2020, 09:51 AM	#2
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 731	My first impression was filipino origen, the spanish dagger. mainly from the Albacete city, have different guards. Thanks Carlos

5th July 2020, 04:27 AM	#3
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	Some very compelling insights - thank you everyone! my inability to clearly classify this feels validated The hilt still looks Spanish to me, but the idea of the blade being a spear head bears consideration. The overall profile does look like certain tombaks, although that would correspond with a broader Indonesian origin. I tend to see these with distinct pamour, but I'm certain many were forged of homogeneous steel. Another thought that occurred to me - this would probably serve the purpose of a marlin spike. The mighty Wikipedia states these could be over 12" in length and would double as an offensive weapon, when needed. In this case, a dagger that could be used for marline rope work, rather than a spike being used as an improvised weapon. Thanks again, and I'm curious to see how this conversation progresses. If the consensus builds that this is not European, I'm gonna with this being moved over to the Ethno section.

5th July 2020, 08:48 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Exactly, Shayde, concerning origin. You are right about the tombak and the beautiful pamour to those spear heads. I also agree concerning the Spanish Albacete style hilt, but with Spanish and Portuguese colonialism and presence in so many of these areas (Philippines, Indonesia, Brunai, etc), a marriage of blade and hilt is not unheard-of. Marlin spikes, whale blubber knives, belay pins, etc, all made great weapons in a fight on the deck. The late, great Gilkerson mentions as much and includes examples of such usage during boardings. I am also curious to see where this artifact will lead us next!

6th July 2020, 12:35 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	Look at the bundiak spear just posted on the Ethnographic forum. Regards Richard

6th July 2020, 02:04 PM	#6
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	Thanks Richard! The buniak spear you reference doesn't quite have the same blade profile, and it looks like it might be mounted by a socket vs. a tang? Still, there is some similarity, so not a bad lead, and I will have to look up additional images to see if there are examples that more closely resemble the 'dirk' in question.

11th July 2020, 02:56 AM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	So, I've been scouring this site and others for any spear heads that match this profile, but to no avail. Nearly every spear head starts barely wider than the tang, then swells to the thicker part of the head before narrowing to the tip. The blade on the knife in question begins, right at the guard, as wide as it ever gets. It THEN narrows in the scallops of the ricasso, before regaining the same width. It someone can find a spear head with this pattern/profile, that would truly narrow down a place of origin. Otherwise, I'm back to thinking it was always intended to be a knife blade rather than a repurposed spear.

23rd July 2020, 09:06 PM	#9
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	Thank you, Philip and Fernando. Again, my attribution of this piece to Spain was based upon the hilt bearing similarities to other knives made in the region, including the example I provided from the reference book. Nothing matched entirely, which is why I wanted to seek feedback here. I'm grateful if this thread could be copied onto the Ethnographic forum. I still have yet to see a spear that matches this profile, but someone there likely has, and can narrow down an origin. I've yet to be convinced it isn't European in origin, so copying it to the other forum may provide that evidence. So,a s I type that, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to have two threads. So, perhaps it could be moved and, if a non-European origin isn't established, we could discuss moving it back here. I'll let you, as a moderator, decide what is best. Philip, I agree it is a long shot, and the similarities are not extensive, BUT the profile of the pugio does indeed have some parallels to the dagger in question. In fact, more so than anything else I've been able to find, at least regarding the junction with the hilt and the concave ricasso. Great point to make, even if there is no direct link, it is interesting to see certain forms represented/repeated on disparate pieces. Thanks again

23rd July 2020, 09:14 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Let's just move it, then.

25th July 2020, 07:09 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	It is most interesting to read these very astute entries with observations showing various possibilities with combined influences from numerous countries and regions. With the profound trade and colonialism in the places noted, I think it is important to remember that artisans from these many places often were relocated in these situations, and the combining of their favored styling and designs were inevitably inherent in the weapons they fashioned. This is one of the intrigues of studying ethnographic weapons, the noting and identifying of these elements into a kind of fabric incorporating the cultures and influences represented in the weapon at hand. In such weapons, a concise or specific classification is often not feasible, but better identified to the majority category with subsequent features added.