Arab Style Musket

Mefidk · 21st May 2021, 06:01 PM

Hi Rick
Very glad you finally got one of your own - these two you just posted are mine. They were brought back from Saudi by a Swedish diplomat.
I bought them the got them sent here, but Danish post office rules prevented me getting them to you. Danish post office are unfriendly to any form of weapons!
Chris

Philip · 21st May 2021, 07:16 PM

Hi, Rick

I agree that your gun is most likely rebuilt on a repurposed British / EIC barrel and stock. The remains of a rear sight mortise on the much-corroded barrel surface, and the shaping of the wood around the lock mortise (and corresponding effect on left side) are too obvious to ignore.

The lock has seen a lot of action, and field repairs. I like that Phillips-head screw used as a sear pivot! Try dropping a regulation type Enfield perc lock into that mortise, I bet it'll work just fine! Ditto for a barrel, somehow I don't have much faith in the shooting safety of the present one judging from exterior corrosion.

Keep us posted!

Philip

kahnjar1 · 21st May 2021, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Hi, Rick

I agree that your gun is most likely rebuilt on a repurposed British / EIC barrel and stock. The remains of a rear sight mortise on the much-corroded barrel surface, and the shaping of the wood around the lock mortise (and corresponding effect on left side) are too obvious to ignore.

The lock has seen a lot of action, and field repairs. I like that Phillips-head screw used as a sear pivot! Try dropping a regulation type Enfield perc lock into that mortise, I bet it'll work just fine! Ditto for a barrel, somehow I don't have much faith in the shooting safety of the present one judging from exterior corrosion.

Keep us posted!

Philip

I agree with Philip.......repurposed (likely) British military stocks.
Stu

rickystl · 21st May 2021, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mefidk

Hi Rick
Very glad you finally got one of your own - these two you just posted are mine. They were brought back from Saudi by a Swedish diplomat.
I bought them the got them sent here, but Danish post office rules prevented me getting them to you. Danish post office are unfriendly to any form of weapons!
Chris

Hi Chris !!! Glad you saw my Thread. Been a long time. I hope you will forgive me for assuming it would be OK to post your guns here to make a point ?
And I want to thank you once again for going above and beyond the call of duty trying to find a way to ship.

But yes, I finally have one.

Rick

rickystl · 21st May 2021, 08:35 PM

Hi Philip

Yes, I'm certain these guns were assembled utilizing British or EIC parts.

There are no markings (left) on the lock. And it needs some repair/rebuilding. But I have access to original parts as needed.

I just so happen to have an exact replica of an 1858 British Enfield. I'll see if the barrel and lock are indeed interchangeable. I also have an original EIC lock that is in unused condition that I can try.

I'll post again after the trial. LOL

Rick

Mefidk · 27th May 2021, 07:17 AM

Of course Rick, no problem. Nice to see them appear here again.
I believe that both these guns started life as Sepoy smoothbores. One lock is dated 1855 Tower, crown and VR and broad arrow, but the barrel is standard Sepoy issue with dog kennel foresight from 1859 (rear sight replaced). It is fully stamped with all the normal inspection marks for military issue. The butt cap (with the studs) is a separate piece attached as far as I can see with nails.
The second lock was never removed. I was going to leave that to you

Now underway, so once its done I will be able to tell if its also a regulation lock and hopefully whether Tower or EIC. The sights on the barrel have been replaced but I think originally were as the first gun. The barrel is otherwise standard with military/EIC issue stamps (pictured).
The butt is simply a carved down original stock on this one, and put side by side matches exactly my original example from 1959.

I did not remove the barrel of either gun to look for more inspection marks and possibly a maker since I am afraid of damaging the silver work, which is firmly in place.
/Chris

rickystl · 27th May 2021, 08:05 PM

Hi Chris

Thanks for Posting again. Interesting information about your two guns.
I wouldn't try to take the barrels off either. Not worth messing up the silver since its nailed on.

Sepoy smooth bores. Hmmm..yes. Probably correct. I was thinking originally that the barrels might be surplus 1840-50's Enfield barrels not in use after the 1853 Enfield introduction with the rifled barrels. But the Supoy troops were still supplied with these smooth bores till at least the mid-1850's if my memory serves (?)

I do have a barrel and lock from a British 1858 rifled musket and a EIC lock that I will see if they fit in my Saudi gun. Just curious. I don't know if there was much change in the locks from the 1853 pattern and the earlier locks used with the smooth bores. We shall see.

Rick

Mefidk · 28th May 2021, 08:44 PM

Yes Rick - the 1859 model of the Enfield was specifically made for Sepoy troops after the Indian Mutiny. It is the only version of the barrel with the 'dog kennel' foresight.
So, a smoothbore barrel with this sight is an easy identification. The tombstone rear sight on these barrels is replaced. If it was a standard army issue it would have had a ladder sight. I don't know why this rounded sight with a hole was preferred, but this seems to be a local adaptation, and in both mine clearly brazed on later. The lock on mine is therefore incongruous, but the locks for at least 1856 to 1859 (which are the examples I have) are totally interchangable. I have an EIC musket from the 1840s and later (patterns C & F) but these are slightly different, and the pattern C lock would not fit a later Enfield, but I think that the pattern F would. This suggests to me that the locks from British 1850 guns were interchangeable - but I don't quite have enough examples to exchange them to test this (I sold my 1856 to my neighbour who was enthralled by it - maybe I can ask him for a loan to try the exchange).

I don't have an 1840s army issue rifle or smoothbore, but if it follows EIC then the lock is a different shape compared to the later versions (easiest spotted by the thicker forward part of the lockplate).

27th May 2021, 07:17 AM	#6
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Of course Rick, no problem. Nice to see them appear here again. I believe that both these guns started life as Sepoy smoothbores. One lock is dated 1855 Tower, crown and VR and broad arrow, but the barrel is standard Sepoy issue with dog kennel foresight from 1859 (rear sight replaced). It is fully stamped with all the normal inspection marks for military issue. The butt cap (with the studs) is a separate piece attached as far as I can see with nails. The second lock was never removed. I was going to leave that to you Now underway, so once its done I will be able to tell if its also a regulation lock and hopefully whether Tower or EIC. The sights on the barrel have been replaced but I think originally were as the first gun. The barrel is otherwise standard with military/EIC issue stamps (pictured). The butt is simply a carved down original stock on this one, and put side by side matches exactly my original example from 1959. I did not remove the barrel of either gun to look for more inspection marks and possibly a maker since I am afraid of damaging the silver work, which is firmly in place. /Chris Attached Images

21st May 2021, 06:01 PM	#1
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Hi Rick Very glad you finally got one of your own - these two you just posted are mine. They were brought back from Saudi by a Swedish diplomat. I bought them the got them sent here, but Danish post office rules prevented me getting them to you. Danish post office are unfriendly to any form of weapons! Chris

21st May 2021, 07:16 PM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Hi, Rick I agree that your gun is most likely rebuilt on a repurposed British / EIC barrel and stock. The remains of a rear sight mortise on the much-corroded barrel surface, and the shaping of the wood around the lock mortise (and corresponding effect on left side) are too obvious to ignore. The lock has seen a lot of action, and field repairs. I like that Phillips-head screw used as a sear pivot! Try dropping a regulation type Enfield perc lock into that mortise, I bet it'll work just fine! Ditto for a barrel, somehow I don't have much faith in the shooting safety of the present one judging from exterior corrosion. Keep us posted! Philip

21st May 2021, 08:35 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Philip Yes, I'm certain these guns were assembled utilizing British or EIC parts. There are no markings (left) on the lock. And it needs some repair/rebuilding. But I have access to original parts as needed. I just so happen to have an exact replica of an 1858 British Enfield. I'll see if the barrel and lock are indeed interchangeable. I also have an original EIC lock that is in unused condition that I can try. I'll post again after the trial. LOL Rick

27th May 2021, 08:05 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Chris Thanks for Posting again. Interesting information about your two guns. I wouldn't try to take the barrels off either. Not worth messing up the silver since its nailed on. Sepoy smooth bores. Hmmm..yes. Probably correct. I was thinking originally that the barrels might be surplus 1840-50's Enfield barrels not in use after the 1853 Enfield introduction with the rifled barrels. But the Supoy troops were still supplied with these smooth bores till at least the mid-1850's if my memory serves (?) I do have a barrel and lock from a British 1858 rifled musket and a EIC lock that I will see if they fit in my Saudi gun. Just curious. I don't know if there was much change in the locks from the 1853 pattern and the earlier locks used with the smooth bores. We shall see. Rick

28th May 2021, 08:44 PM	#8
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Yes Rick - the 1859 model of the Enfield was specifically made for Sepoy troops after the Indian Mutiny. It is the only version of the barrel with the 'dog kennel' foresight. So, a smoothbore barrel with this sight is an easy identification. The tombstone rear sight on these barrels is replaced. If it was a standard army issue it would have had a ladder sight. I don't know why this rounded sight with a hole was preferred, but this seems to be a local adaptation, and in both mine clearly brazed on later. The lock on mine is therefore incongruous, but the locks for at least 1856 to 1859 (which are the examples I have) are totally interchangable. I have an EIC musket from the 1840s and later (patterns C & F) but these are slightly different, and the pattern C lock would not fit a later Enfield, but I think that the pattern F would. This suggests to me that the locks from British 1850 guns were interchangeable - but I don't quite have enough examples to exchange them to test this (I sold my 1856 to my neighbour who was enthralled by it - maybe I can ask him for a loan to try the exchange). I don't have an 1840s army issue rifle or smoothbore, but if it follows EIC then the lock is a different shape compared to the later versions (easiest spotted by the thicker forward part of the lockplate).