Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th March 2021, 01:11 PM   #1
ASomer
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 8
Default Koummya and Janbiya

Hi,

I just bought these daggers. Three of them are Maroccan Koummya and one I guess is Yemen? Janbiya.

Can anybody shed some light on the age and if they are merely tourist grade daggers?

Obviously the condition is pretty bad.

Thanks
Attached Images
      
ASomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2021, 05:47 PM   #2
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 239
Default

The Koummya in the middle seems to be the oldest, maybe it is antique. It has also some authentic signs of wear. The other two are touristic pieces, eventually 1970s or later. The Jambiya looks indian or pakistani to me and is not that old, too.
Regards
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2021, 06:28 PM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

The koumyya's are from the Maghreb in North Africa, that is Morocco into Algeria, and technically are a form of khanjhar.
The right item is termed khanjahr in the regions in eastern Yemen into Oman and northeast to Bahrain. This, as noted, not that old and seems Omani, though not following the typical styling too much.

The term janbiyya is used for the daggers to the west from Yemen into the Hijaz, and there are regional dfferences.

Koummya tend not to be very old as they have been produced n huge volume as souvenirs. Even the middle one may have antiquty into the 20s at best.
Very specialized area of collecting and look forward to observations by the guys here most knwledgeable n them.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 03:15 PM   #4
ASomer
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 8
Default

Thanks for your help!
It is always nice to learn something new from more experienced collectors.
ASomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 02:24 PM   #5
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,048
Default

I have owned a few of the souvenir Koummya over the years, and rather liked them though disappointed in the blades. In fact I bought a relatively new one recently via this forum, which I am very happy with.
The old style real weapons do turn up from time to time, the difference being a forged blade, rather than one filed out of flat stock. This is the one I bought about 15 years ago at an open air antique (and junk) fair.
Attached Images
      
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 02:27 PM   #6
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,048
Default

And one with a 30cm ruler for scale.
Attached Images
 
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 04:31 PM   #7
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,860
Default

To me, all three Koummyas look rather low end touristy 20th century.

More about Koummyas you can find at the link below:

http://vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html

The Jambiya does not appear to be ethnographically specific/traditional and it is definitely not Omani or Yemeni, in my opinion. The workmanship doesn't appear to be neither Indian or Pakistani but more like African.

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 16th March 2021 at 04:49 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 05:50 PM   #8
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
To me, all three Koummyas look rather low end touristy 20th century.
Hello Marius,

The one in the middle is definitely old/antique, have a look to the holes where the rings let the traces of long time use.

Regards,
Detlef
Attached Images
 
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 06:11 PM   #9
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Marius,

The one in the middle is definitely old/antique, have a look to the holes where the rings let the traces of long time use.

Regards,
Detlef
I agree, but the scabbard only, not the dagger.
The scabbard is from the 19th and the dagger from the mid or late 20th c like the others.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 06:13 PM   #10
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
And one with a 30cm ruler for scale.
This is a good stuff, David

You should buy the scabbard from Asomer, it will be perfect for it.

Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 06:58 PM   #11
Saracen
Member
 
Saracen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 147
Default

Jambiya handle inlaid elements are made in Indian style.
They are a bit primitive, but I agree with Gonzoadler. Pakistan is likely.

Mariusgmioc, I really like your Koummya in the neighboring topic
Congratulations)
Saracen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 07:15 PM   #12
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Marius,

The one in the middle is definitely old/antique, have a look to the holes where the rings let the traces of long time use.

Regards,
Detlef
Hola Detlef,

I somehow overlooked the scabbards.

Indeed, the scabbard of the middle one has some significant wear but that doesn't necessarily make it old. The metal of the scabbard is brass and tin alloy, which are soft metals, and if it was mounted on steel rings one may get this wear after a few months of wearing.

Anyhow, the blade appears to be flat, cut & filed from sheet/band stock.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 08:53 PM   #13
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hola Detlef,

I somehow overlooked the scabbards.

Indeed, the scabbard of the middle one has some significant wear but that doesn't necessarily make it old. The metal of the scabbard is brass and tin alloy, which are soft metals, and if it was mounted on steel rings one may get this wear after a few months of wearing.

Anyhow, the blade appears to be flat, cut & filed from sheet/band stock.
Hello Marius,

I guess the scabbard is from brass and silver, such a wear don't come from a few month of wearing and I am with Kubur that the scabbard is 19th century but you and Kubur could by correct by the blade. But I would like to see better pictures.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 11:57 PM   #14
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
I guess the scabbard is from brass and silver,
Regards,
Detlef
Again Detlef is correct brass on one side and brass covered with silver sheet on the other.

Asomer, can you please put the dagger from the left side in the scabbard in the middle? I have the feeling that there is a missmatch...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 07:28 AM   #15
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,860
Default

Often tin alloys are very difficult to distinguish from silver even at close inspection. Very often it is impossible to say for sure that it is silver based only on a low quality photo.

However, there are very clear signs (see photo) we are not talking about sheet silver, but about tin alloy (more precisely solder) applied crudely in molten state directly on the brass scabbard. And what appears to be surface wear is in fact the result of the poorly reproduced shapes of the brass below and subsequent abrasive cleaning.

But maybe ASomer can tell us more precisely what it is?
Attached Images
 

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 17th March 2021 at 09:17 AM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 08:55 AM   #16
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Hi Marius,

You have very good eyes, it was badly restored with lead.
But I guarantee you that this type of koummya have a silver sheat on one side.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 05:23 PM   #17
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

I am also sure that it is silver plated on one side!
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 07:44 PM   #18
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Often tin alloys are very difficult to distinguish from silver even at close inspection. Very often it is impossible to say for sure that it is silver based only on a low quality photo.
I own a 19th century koummya, brass scabbard with very worn silver accents in front, the silver plating is attached on a layer tin or similar metal. The same effect you can notice by the koummya in question. I guess it was done to let the silver look thicker. A test would show that in up is silver where it is not worn, believe me, it gets dark like I know it only from silver. But you are correct, under the silver is something similar to tin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
But maybe ASomer can tell us more precisely what it is?
Yes, this would be great!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2021, 11:48 AM   #19
ASomer
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 8
Default

Hi thanks for all the interesting insights.

To be honest I have no idea what it is, I guess it could be silver plated brass.

I am attaching some more photos of the back side and the blade.
Attached Images
     
ASomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.