Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd July 2021, 02:10 AM   #1
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default Shamshir - Naga?

Greetings fellow collectors.

I recently acquired this Qajar Shamshir with a serpent running down the blade. I understand that Naga’s are a thing in Indian (Hindu) mythology. May I ask. Does anyone have an understanding of the significance of the serpent in the Persian tradition, in regards to sword blades.

I wonder if the serpent was applied or somehow ground/hammered down from a thicker piece of Wootz.

Thanks.
Attached Images
    
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 04:35 AM   #2
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

All I can say is that I have seen snakes on Qajar swords before.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 04:46 AM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

This is of course a Persian Qajar (revival piece as such arms & armor in this category are termed) version of early traditional swords. The term 'shamshir' is a Persian collective term for sabers which is typically associated with the curved blades with sharp point and most often of wootz.

Regarding the serpent, in Persian symbology, these typically represent 'Zahnak' which although an evil creature, but the salient factor here seems to be that it was said to be able to strike more quickly than the blink of an eye.
These serpents are seen in many Persian edged weapon blade motif, and there are some which have two heads.

Interestingly, these serpents are even seen on some 'kaskara' broadswords in Sudan, reflecting the profound influence of Persian weapons through of course religious beliefs there.

The note of 'nagan' (=snake) blades is indeed well known not only in India in Hindu and other religious symbolism, but characterized on many 'wavy' style blades such as in the keris and others.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 10:12 AM   #4
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Hi, Very nice Wootz blade, I think it's a dragon or Azhdaha. A similar blade is displayed in the MET catalogue if I'm not mistaken and the same sword can be seen in Rivkin's book on Eastern swords. It's mid 19th c.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 11:27 AM   #5
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default Fast as a snake

Thanks Jim,
In fact this saber is extremely light in the hand and I feel dances, reminiscent of a snake. The wider bladed Kilij type silvery saber, also in the group picture, is much more too heavy and seems to be suited perhaps for cavalry slashes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
This is of course a Persian Qajar (revival piece as such arms & armor in this category are termed) version of early traditional swords. The term 'shamshir' is a Persian collective term for sabers which is typically associated with the curved blades with sharp point and most often of wootz.

Regarding the serpent, in Persian symbology, these typically represent 'Zahnak' which although an evil creature, but the salient factor here seems to be that it was said to be able to strike more quickly than the blink of an eye.
These serpents are seen in many Persian edged weapon blade motif, and there are some which have two heads.

Interestingly, these serpents are even seen on some 'kaskara' broadswords in Sudan, reflecting the profound influence of Persian weapons through of course religious beliefs there.

The note of 'nagan' (=snake) blades is indeed well known not only in India in Hindu and other religious symbolism, but characterized on many 'wavy' style blades such as in the keris and others.
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 11:29 AM   #6
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default

Thanks Kubir,
I will look for the examples you mentioned in the MET and Rivkins book on Eastern Swords. I don’t think I have that book yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur View Post
Hi, Very nice Wootz blade, I think it's a dragon or Azhdaha. A similar blade is displayed in the MET catalogue if I'm not mistaken and the same sword can be seen in Rivkin's book on Eastern swords. It's mid 19th c.
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 12:14 PM   #7
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,861
Default

Hello David,

I have major doubts about the age of this sword. I suspect it to be a 20th century Indian/Pakistani panoply hanger.

First, the scabbard is a mixture of Turkish (stitched with visible silver thread), Persian and Indian (no chape) styles, with both the leather and the silver thread in too good to be true condition.

Second, the hilt (with lanyard hole) is a mixture of Persian and Turkish style, and the carvings do not appear to be Persian because of style and quality, while the applied gold (which doesn't seem to be koftgari) is in too good condition.

Third, the blade is not of Persian shape and appears to be of recent Indian/Pakistani manufacture, with some etched patination (exactly the patination I usually get when etching for wootz a blade that is not wootz).

1. Can you please send us detailed photos of the wootz pattern?!

2. Is the blade sharp?

3. Can you show us a detailed photo of the yelman portion?

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 3rd July 2021 at 01:32 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 09:22 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

[QUOTE=DavidFriedman;264049]Thanks Jim,
In fact this saber is extremely light in the hand and I feel dances, reminiscent of a snake. The wider bladed Kilij type silvery saber, also in the group picture, is much more too heavy and seems to be suited perhaps for cavalry slashes.[/QUOT

Just asides, the wavy bladed swords having to do with the naga (snake) in India and Asian, Indonesian cultures are seen as well in 'the west' in medieval sword blades often termed 'flamberge', taken to mean 'flaming sword'. This has to do with Biblical reference to the flaming sword which guarded the gates to the Garden of Eden.

In Viking and Germanic swords the pattern welding causing patterns in the steel of the blade were regarded as serpent like, and the brilliant paper "The Serpent in the Blade" by Dr. Lee Jones had to do with this perspective.

In many Mexican knife blades the phrase, 'when this snake bites, there is no cure' is often seen.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 10:52 PM   #9
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default Condition report

Here are some closer pictures alongside some other period Qajar swords/sabers in my collection. Perhaps these pictures will give a clearer perspective. It is in the best shape I have ever personally seen for a saber of this age. I believe it was either recently cleaned, and or kept behind glass or some such place. I do not believe at all that this is a modern piece, as I have seen many of those and they are horrendous at best.

I do appreciate your input though and look to get broader perspectives.
Attached Images
      
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 10:55 PM   #10
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default More pics

More pics
Attached Images
      
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 10:57 PM   #11
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,861
Default

Thank you David for the additional photos!

The wootz pattern is consistent with Qajar period wootz.

So I guess I was wrong.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 10:57 PM   #12
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default

Thanks Jim. My friend has some exquisite Kris and Indonesian Archipelago weapons with wonderful serpentine designs. I have yet to collect any, but probably will in the future.


[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;264072]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidFriedman View Post
Thanks Jim,
In fact this saber is extremely light in the hand and I feel dances, reminiscent of a snake. The wider bladed Kilij type silvery saber, also in the group picture, is much more too heavy and seems to be suited perhaps for cavalry slashes.[/QUOT

Just asides, the wavy bladed swords having to do with the naga (snake) in India and Asian, Indonesian cultures are seen as well in 'the west' in medieval sword blades often termed 'flamberge', taken to mean 'flaming sword'. This has to do with Biblical reference to the flaming sword which guarded the gates to the Garden of Eden.

In Viking and Germanic swords the pattern welding causing patterns in the steel of the blade were regarded as serpent like, and the brilliant paper "The Serpent in the Blade" by Dr. Lee Jones had to do with this perspective.

In many Mexican knife blades the phrase, 'when this snake bites, there is no cure' is often seen.
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 11:01 PM   #13
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default Great

Thanks, My apologies for lousy photos earlier. I’d be very unhappy if it was a modern one lol. I bought it to resell it, but I’m planning to keep this one as it plays delightfully. It’s funny how things change when we actually get to hold a sword. The silver handled one looks nicer to me in form, but wields very top heavy. I’m thinking cavalry maneuvers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc View Post
Thank you David for the additional photos!

The wootz pattern is consistent with Qajar period wootz.

So I guess I was wrong.
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2021, 11:57 PM   #14
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

[QUOTE=DavidFriedman;264077]Thanks Jim. My friend has some exquisite Kris and Indonesian Archipelago weapons with wonderful serpentine designs. I have yet to collect any, but probably will in the future.



You bet David, and thanks for the additional pics, very impressive! and nice example!!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2021, 02:05 AM   #15
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default

Thanks, it’s such a joy to collect these pieces of history.

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;264081]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidFriedman View Post
Thanks Jim. My friend has some exquisite Kris and Indonesian Archipelago weapons with wonderful serpentine designs. I have yet to collect any, but probably will in the future.





You bet David, and thanks for the additional pics, very impressive! and nice example!!
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2021, 11:43 AM   #16
Drabant1701
Member
 
Drabant1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 181
Default

Very nice collection david! Do you have it on the wall like that with all three swords and the shield? The shield btw is fantastic, just the right amount of wear and patina.
Drabant1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2021, 10:38 PM   #17
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post

In many Mexican knife blades the phrase, 'when this snake bites, there is no cure' is often seen.
They're probably more dangerous when they tempt you with apple clenched in fangs!
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2021, 10:41 PM   #18
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc View Post

The wootz pattern is consistent with Qajar period wootz.
it's also consistent with a lot of Ottoman blades.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2021, 07:03 AM   #19
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default

Thanks so much. I currently don’t have them on the wall like that, but on Chinese and Japanese sword stands. It would be nice to put them on the wall. That’s a good idea, if I can find a way to do it properly.

Yes the shield is a beauty. The Qajar work is very alluring to me. Such aesthetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drabant1701 View Post
Very nice collection david! Do you have it on the wall like that with all three swords and the shield? The shield btw is fantastic, just the right amount of wear and patina.
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2021, 07:04 AM   #20
DavidFriedman
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 113
Default

Ah, the illuminating apple that brings the knowledge of good and evil, muwahahaha


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
They're probably more dangerous when they tempt you with apple clenched in fangs!
DavidFriedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.