Arab (Yemeni) sword from Djibouti

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have only one or two questions about Karabella and that is;

1. Are they related in any way to Othmanli other weapons such as Kilij or Yatagans?

2. What is the origin of the term Karabella please...?

[kahnjar1]

Hi Ibrahiim,
I have always understood that the word relates to the actual SHAPE of the hilt. Here is the definition of KARABELA from Wikipedia which suggests that this is correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabela
So connection to different blade styles such as Kilij would (I think) depend on the shape of the hilt attached.
Stu

[Martin Lubojacky]

Thank you all for comments. Ibrahiim, I ment the blade was not bent to the sides (and maybe except of the first 25 cms it is also springy ...).

I remember a relatively long discussion on the origin of karabela name here in this forum (a few years back ...)

Stu, your saber is nearly identical, maybe the same workshop ! But in much better condition.

[Kubur]

Habibi Ibrahiim
Please look at our web pages, you will find a long discussion about the origin of the karabela.
In short, some think that it originates from the town of Kerbala in Iran and others think (like me) that it originates from Ottoman Turkey. It's the reason why you have these hilts from Poland to Yemen...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Habibi Ibrahiim
Please look at our web pages, you will find a long discussion about the origin of the karabela.
In short, some think that it originates from the town of Kerbala in Iran and others think (like me) that it originates from Ottoman Turkey. It's the reason why you have these hilts from Poland to Yemen...

Part of the reason for my questions is the detail contained in those references and I believe the theory pointed to quite different origins... I see similar hilts in the Kilij and hawk heads across many regions and wondered if they were of the same essential breed... Likenesses appear on many variants including Yatagans and Russian Cossack and Caucasian forms...

[ariel]

Khorasani claimed that this hilt was invented by Shah Abbas I on the basis of the configuration of windows in a Karbala Mosque. This is patently wrong.
Such handles were present well before Abbas was born (1571), and not in Persia.

See Pietro Befulco " Madonna with baby and the saints", painted in 1495

Also, karabela handles were widespread in all countries that contacted with Ottoman Empire, but were exceedingly rare in Persia proper.

[ariel]

Here is another one: Albrecht Durer " Peasants at the market", 1519.

Well before birth of Shah Abbas I the Ottomans took Constantinople, occupied Belgrade and large part of Hungary, had 2 attacks of Vienna, fought at Castelnuovo, Lepanto, Djerba, Malta, Nice and Corsica etc, etc. In short, Europe must have been acquainted with karabelas well before Abbas could have visited Karbala .

The biggest problems of sloppy researchers are their neglect of historiography and enchantment with their own biased "revolutionary" hypotheses.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Not only Albrecht Durer but many other references incuding a lot of EAA Library additions... make a clear case for re opening this discourse .. Take The one below from wikepedia;

Quote'' A karabela was a type of Polish sabre (szabla) popular in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Wojciech Zabłocki defines "karabela" as a decorated sabre with the handle stylized as the head of a bird and an open crossguard.[1]

The word "karabela" does not have well-established etymology, and different versions are suggested.[2] For example, Zygmunt Gloger suggests derivation from the name of the Iraqi city of Karbala, known for trade of this kind of sabres.[3] "Kara" means "Black/Dark" and "Bela" means "Trouble/Curse" in Turkish". Unquote.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

The biggest problems of sloppy researchers are their neglect of historiography and enchantment with their own biased "revolutionary" hypotheses.

But you are quoting Rivkin and his book "Eastern sword" as a reference when the author is using only four pages of bibliography and missing many important references... This book is more or less a Viking forum discussion and personnal opinions with very little evidences... Nevertheless Rivkin published two books including the very good "Arms of Caucasus" and I have a lot of respect for him because he worked hard and wrote these books, whatever the quality.

I really don't know why you are so harsh with Khorasani or Marhat. I probably missed something... It is always easier to critic than to do... So I'm waiting for your book Ariel...