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Old 9th July 2020, 01:59 PM   #1
manishkulkarni
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Default An extremely unique Indopersian double bladed short sword, ID berde!

Hi All, recently purchased this from a UK dealer. Not that I'm a expert by any stretch of imagination, but haven't quite seen anything like it ever before, don't even know what to call it...! Circa late 19th century but possibly earlier. Both blades and edges are pretty sharp for their age. Overall 17 inch, blades approx 14 inch.

Anybody has a view on it's name, age, origin, purpose...?! Could this have a scabbard...?! Potentially a bespoke, made to order piece one reckons...?!

Would be grateful for any information! Thanks.
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Old 9th July 2020, 11:00 PM   #2
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Very odd. Condition looks more recent than 19th C.
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Old 9th July 2020, 11:39 PM   #3
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I agree. Optimistically late 20th, realistically 21st century. I remember seeing a couple of them on E-bay over the past couple of years.

Pretty risky and impractical design: one would almost instinctively try to catch the opponent’s blade between the double blades. With the resultant loss of fingers.
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Old 10th July 2020, 07:15 AM   #4
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To me, this looks like a very recent fantasy weapon.

Absolutely not practical as it cannot provide a stable grip.
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Old 10th July 2020, 03:39 PM   #5
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Thanks guys, apreciate your comments! Although a bit startled that you don't assess this as belonging to 19th century. I acquired this from Lanes Armoury which apparently is an old and very respected business operated by two brothers who're well-known experts. I've the CoA however doesn't state the era but does mention Indonesian. I spoke with one of the partners and their view is late 19th century and they bought it as part of a collection from an old english family.

{Links to sellers' pages with active items listed are not allowed.}

Oh well, I'll keep hold of it, an unusual contraption and I don't believe these guys would sell fakes being in the business for some 50 yrs!

Last edited by Rick : 12th July 2020 at 09:03 PM. Reason: commercial link
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Old 11th July 2020, 01:55 PM   #6
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http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/

probably best to make no comments.
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Old 11th July 2020, 04:10 PM   #7
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Hello Tim,

I am afraid I do not understand what you mean?!

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Old 11th July 2020, 04:14 PM   #8
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As a hand weapon, it looks impractical, however, I could see it as an "Indonesian-ish," spearhead; does it look like it had a provision in the past to secure it to a haft before being modified?
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:26 PM   #9
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Hello,

maybe a modified spearhead like this one,
or a fantasy dagger ( with the easy finger cut as Ariel said...)
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/

probably best to make no comments.


Agree with you, Tim.
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Old 12th July 2020, 03:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/

probably best to make no comments.
Yes, good choice Tim.
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Old 12th July 2020, 08:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Yes, good choice Tim.


Quite so !
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Old 12th July 2020, 04:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manishkulkarni
Oh well, I'll keep hold of it, an unusual contraption and I don't believe these guys would sell fakes being in the business for some 50 yrs!

There is a big difference between intentionally selling fakes and being terribly misinformed about what you are selling. The one thing i will say about the sellers is that they do not seem to specialize or even focus on Indo-persian edged weapons so their expertise in this genre of collecting has certainly not been established.
As has already been pointed out, this would be a very impractical weapon. If it looked like there was once a way to attach this to a shaft to be used as a spear that might make some sense, but as a hand weapon this would undoubtably be a failure in design.Though it appears to be well made i personally would lean towards late 20th century fantasy weapon. Sorry. It's not really a matter of the respectability of the sellers as much as simple observation and simple logic of how hand weapons work (or don't in this case) that lead me to this assessment.
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Old 12th July 2020, 05:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
There is a big difference between intentionally selling fakes and being terribly misinformed about what you are selling. The one thing i will say about the sellers is that they do not seem to specialize or even focus on Indo-persian edged weapons so their expertise in this genre of collecting has certainly not been established.
As has already been pointed out, this would be a very impractical weapon. If it looked like there was once a way to attach this to a shaft to be used as a spear that might make some sense, but as a hand weapon this would undoubtably be a failure in design.Though it appears to be well made i personally would lean towards late 20th century fantasy weapon. Sorry. It's not really a matter of the respectability of the sellers as much as simple observation and simple logic of how hand weapons work (or don't in this case) that lead me to this assessment.


Standing ovation, David.

Manishkukarni, imagine how helpful it would have been if you had allowed us to see the whole object instead of your hand and same.
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Old 12th July 2020, 06:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Standing ovation, David.

Manishkukarni, imagine how helpful it would have been if you had allowed us to see the whole object instead of your hand and same.


...or in addition to, rather than instead of... You can of course still add another photo to improve the thread.

(I also gree it appears to be a modern fantasy piece and awkward to use in combat.)
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Old 17th July 2020, 02:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
There is a big difference between intentionally selling fakes and being terribly misinformed about what you are selling. The one thing i will say about the sellers is that they do not seem to specialize or even focus on Indo-persian edged weapons so their expertise in this genre of collecting has certainly not been established.
As has already been pointed out, this would be a very impractical weapon. If it looked like there was once a way to attach this to a shaft to be used as a spear that might make some sense, but as a hand weapon this would undoubtably be a failure in design.Though it appears to be well made i personally would lean towards late 20th century fantasy weapon. Sorry. It's not really a matter of the respectability of the sellers as much as simple observation and simple logic of how hand weapons work (or don't in this case) that lead me to this assessment.


All and David in particular, many thanks for your insight and understood - it still leaves me very disappointed if this is late 20th rather than late 19th as claimed by the dealer. Unfortunately the week's return warranty has passed so not much hope of asking a refund I guess...

Here're some more close-ups and I see absolutely no sign of a joint or this previously being mount atop a spear.
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Old 18th July 2020, 01:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manishkulkarni
... Unfortunately the week's return warranty has passed so not much hope of asking a refund I guess ...
Always worth asking. This piece was most likely made in Rajastan where a lot of reproduction, reassembled, and fantasy pieces are fabricated. Lahore is another possibility. The cast brass "handle" is of low quality, with many small defects from casting flaws, another indicator of likely recent manufacture.
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Old 18th July 2020, 03:34 PM   #18
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This is an intriguing and tempting item, and with the considerable innovation in Indian weaponry it is always difficult to resist something which seems viable but falls outside the realm of actually usable arms.
I totally agree with David's well stated observations on the very familiar circumstances collectors often face, and other great insights here on this.

One wonders if this is a modern interpretation of an actual older weapon, and that does seem plausible as with the dual blade polearm shown.

As Ian has noted there is considerable industry in India producing modern pieces of these kinds of variety, and while the obvious consideration is for the souvenir trade, it does some that many items might have potential for the pageantry in traditional ceremonies in India.

Whether an actual weapon or not, the item is attractive and interesting with those factors considered, so while lesson learned, still not total loss.
We've likely all gone through these 'disappointments'
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Old 18th July 2020, 03:35 PM   #19
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The close up of the handle says enough.
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Old 18th July 2020, 05:33 PM   #20
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Yes, that casting seam clinches the argument. I hope that's your photo, not one of the vendor's - he might try saying you should have known from his photo...

The law in the UK gives you 30 days to return an item for refund,

From sale of goods act 2015:

"Under the Consumer Rights Act 0f 2015 you have a legal right to reject goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, and get a full refund - as long as you do this quickly. This right is limited to 30 days from the date you take ownership of your product."

If it was an online purchase, you may have further rights.

Always buy by credit card where possible, they give you 60 days to claim and get your money back, then the fight the vendor to reimburse the CC company.

The vendor cannot remove these rights by clauses in their 'Terms and Conditions'. Weasel words like 'sold as seen' or attempts to delay or avoid responsibility for falsely describing an item do not remove your rights. The description may have untruths in it, but that's for your vendor to take up with them that sold it to them. Of course, if you are from outside the UK, getting redress may be difficult if the vendor chooses to ignore you. Hiring a lawyer remotely would be expensive, and hiring a Baliff to actually collect on any court judgement might also be a headache (tho the vendor have to pay the fees). All in all, if the item was not very expensive, you might have to bite the bullet & chalk it up to experience as a learning episode. As noted, ALL of us have an OOPS corner or closet for memory stimulants, or for resale (just be sure to call it a replica or fantasy item and avoid calling it an antique).
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Old 18th July 2020, 10:55 PM   #21
manishkulkarni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Yes, that casting seam clinches the argument. I hope that's your photo, not one of the vendor's - he might try saying you should have known from his photo...

The law in the UK gives you 30 days to return an item for refund,

From sale of goods act 2015:

"Under the Consumer Rights Act 0f 2015 you have a legal right to reject goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, and get a full refund - as long as you do this quickly. This right is limited to 30 days from the date you take ownership of your product."

If it was an online purchase, you may have further rights.

Always buy by credit card where possible, they give you 60 days to claim and get your money back, then the fight the vendor to reimburse the CC company.

The vendor cannot remove these rights by clauses in their 'Terms and Conditions'. Weasel words like 'sold as seen' or attempts to delay or avoid responsibility for falsely describing an item do not remove your rights. The description may have untruths in it, but that's for your vendor to take up with them that sold it to them. Of course, if you are from outside the UK, getting redress may be difficult if the vendor chooses to ignore you. Hiring a lawyer remotely would be expensive, and hiring a Baliff to actually collect on any court judgement might also be a headache (tho the vendor have to pay the fees). All in all, if the item was not very expensive, you might have to bite the bullet & chalk it up to experience as a learning episode. As noted, ALL of us have an OOPS corner or closet for memory stimulants, or for resale (just be sure to call it a replica or fantasy item and avoid calling it an antique).


Hi All,

I'm truly very grateful for your guidance and advice! Indeed, a lesson well learnt and although I feel embarrassed, let me come clean - I paid £700 for it, that too with a sale discount, without which this was at £990. The guys at Lanes Armoury were extremely friendly and courteous, and although not part of the original description, I have it on email that it was their assessment that this piece is late 19th century or possibly earlier. As an amateur and inexperienced collector, I rely greatly on reputation and integrity of people I buy from and don't even look for a cheap bargain (seller's knowledge point put to rest eloquently by David ). My interest was from an unusual weapon perspective, although I generally stick to swords from the Raj era (born and grew up in Mumbai but have been in the UK for 20 yrs now, hence the fascination).

All in all, pretty disappointed that this seems a lot more recent than late 19th and I absolutely intend to ask for a refund. I'm aware it's always a bit hairy with disputing claims with antiques but let me see how that goes - I'll keep you all posted. Thanks kronckew for the legal bit Any guidance from anybody on how I position this argument would be appreciated.

Lastly, I attach one more snap, sorry for attaching the same snap twice. The official description is as follows:

A Most Exotic & Impressive Indo Persian Double Bladed Short Sword Somewhat reminiscent of the Indian double bladed bichwa. Twin serpent blades with twin fullers, cast copper-brass hilt decorated with ornate designs. To use such an extravagant weapon one had to have been very skilled and highly trained in its use, for the potential for the holder to do harm to his self must have been quite great. 17.5 inches long overall.
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Old 19th July 2020, 03:47 AM   #22
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A "fake" would indicate there was something it was copying to mislead. And it is about intent to mislead rather than ignorance.

This looks as others have mentioned a recently manufactured item in the fantasy weapon realm.

I would certainly contact the vendor and ask to return the item and receive a refund. Express your concerns about the age attribution given to the piece.

A learning experience - we have all had them. Join groups like this, plenty on facebook also, and post images prior to purchase. Some groups do not permit links to auctions etc prior or discuss prices but you can get an opinion of an item.

It works both ways - was sold an item as early 20th C and it was 100 years older and worth much more than asking price.

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Old 20th July 2020, 03:59 PM   #23
Ian
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Exclamation Moderator's comment ...

Please remember that this site does not permit discussion on the Forum pages of the prices of items or how to deal with sellers. Such discussions should be communicated directly through Private Messaging or via email.


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Old 20th July 2020, 06:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Please remember that this site does not permit discussion on the Forum pages of the prices of items or how to deal with sellers. Such discussions should be communicated directly through Private Messaging or via email.




Understood and sincere apologies Ian and everyone, it's been very helpful indeed and I'll keep posted on how it goes. Should anyone have any tips, please do send me a personal message! Thanks.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:55 PM   #25
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I am not discussing the price or how to deal with sellers, and I have resisted commenting, because my I think my comment would not be well received by the moderators.
But I am annoyed; so here it is.
I think they knew.
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/679...-over-antiques/
Regards
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Old 21st July 2020, 02:16 AM   #26
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Thanks Richard G! The article speaks for itself. I share your "annoyance."
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:02 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manishkulkarni
Understood and sincere apologies Ian and everyone, it's been very helpful indeed and I'll keep posted on how it goes. Should anyone have any tips, please do send me a personal message! Thanks.
No problem Manish. I hope this issue resolves favorably for you.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:49 AM   #28
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Just heard back from Mark who offered an unserved apology and full refund without the slightest hesitation. He noted that they hadn't seen anything like it before at their shop and without any precedent it was difficult to put a circa era. Very professional and swift I must admit.

Lesson least guys, antiques is a minefield at the best of times and like I said, I don't ever look at cheap bargains as I collect items for the emotional connect with the British Raj era. I'll be ultra cautious from here on and will certainly rely on your knowledge and guidance!

You're all amazing people, take care! 💐
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:00 AM   #29
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Sellers "misleading" (to put it mildly) the buyers is a huge issue!

I have encountered it at every level, starting from individual eBay sellers and ending up with highly reputed auction houses. And whether it is a deliberate scamming attempt or genuine human error it remains nevertheless in the realm of deceit.

Unfortunately, while in the case of commercial goods you are well protected by the existing legislation against scams, in the field of antiques, the principle of "caveat emptor" prevails. Almost all auction houses have in their contractual terms clauses protecting them against any attempt to recover your loss resulted from a deceiving description.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:39 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Sellers "misleading" (to put it mildly) the buyers is a huge issue!

I have encountered it at every level, starting from individual eBay sellers and ending up with highly reputed auction houses. And whether it is a deliberate scamming attempt or genuine human error it remains nevertheless in the realm of deceit.

Unfortunately, while in the case of commercial goods you are well protected by the existing legislation against scams, in the field of antiques, the principle of "caveat emptor" prevails. Almost all auction houses have in their contractual terms clauses protecting them against any attempt to recover your loss resulted from a deceiving description.


Hmmm understood mariusgmioc, just reinforces the lesson that there's no substitute to due diligence even with reputable businesses! Thanks.
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