Strange indian hanger with (pseudo?) genoese marks

Gonzoadler · 24th September 2022, 06:09 PM

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Rick · 24th September 2022, 07:42 PM

The scabbard chape appears to be upside down. Could this be a repurposed fitting from a decorative element of a different scabbard?

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 03:11 AM

While these 'sickle marks' are typically referred to as 'Genoan' that is from the numbers of North Italian blades with these marks that came out of Genoa as it was a port exporting them. Some actually had 'GENOA' stamped along with them which led to that association. The marks were used in varying cities in North Italy and often in multiples, variations and with other marks.

The 'sickle' mark was also notably used in Styrian centers, and as this does seem to be a 'Germanic' blade from a pioneer or auxiliary forces troop, that seems quite possible. The mounts on this blade are interesting. Possibly something for an officer in a 'Freikorps' unit in Austria? These were units based on the mid 18th c. 'pandours' of the Austrian army who favored exotic oriental fashion and weaponry.

In "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert (1962) in a panel of sword blade forms, that clipped point is termed 'pandour point'.

Bob A · 25th September 2022, 04:49 PM

Old blade, repurposed silver work on scabbard, odd and seemingly unused hilt, I don't see it as representative of any particular culture, rather an assemblage possibly completed in India for an aficionado of the eclectic.

I'm probably wrong, of course. Kinda pretty, for all that; certainly eye-catching.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 05:35 PM

European artisans were copying 'oriental' styling in sword mountings in the 18th century, especially with dark background and silver themes from the orient (shakudo and Tonquinese hilted small swords). I have seen Chinese and other forms produced in European weapon forms. The 'pandour' units inspired auxiliary and specialized units with this type theme using 'exotic' weapons and fashions in imitation of these in European armies into early 1800s. Napoleon was particularly fond of these type units, and his Zouave units even influenced the American military in the Civil War,

The British often favored 'oriental' (which included India and Middle East in that parlance) styles in their officers swords. There are many examples of 'foreign' forms and styling in these typically 'one off' specially commissioned weapons.

With this clearly German or Austrian style blade I still think it is an unusual example for an officer in a flamboyant style in the units described. This is most unusual however as this type of 'creation' is typically more expected with cavalry sabers, or officers swords with full length blades.

Rick · 25th September 2022, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Old blade, repurposed silver work on scabbard, odd and seemingly unused hilt, I don't see it as representative of any particular culture, rather an assemblage possibly completed in India for an aficionado of the eclectic.

I'm probably wrong, of course. Kinda pretty, for all that; certainly eye-catching.

Birds don't sing upside down, and the shield motif on the other side of the chape is also upside down.

Makes no sense so I'll vote for a 'married' piece with Indian made blade.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 06:49 PM

It has always been my understanding that a sword is viewed being held upright, not downward as when worn. However looking at the vegetal pattern on the throat it does seem the leaves are pointing upward so would be inverted if sword viewed upright. This type of blade is not as far as I have known been produced in India, even in the modern reproduction market. It is known that the 'sickle' mark often (even almost typically) occurs on the blades of North Indian sabers known as paluoar and Afghan associated, but these are not of the same character as this.

The thistle as seen in the floral pierced pattern on the chape is of course typically regarded as Scottish. The black background against silver is of course mindful of the bidri metal work in India, so bring drawn to that association seems well placed. I will say that there was a degree of Scottish presence in India during the Raj in the 18th c. so there is some commemorative potential in some degree, but this seemingly Austrian blade is it seems misplaced in that notion.

Richard G · 25th September 2022, 09:36 PM

I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim.
Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down.
Best wishes
Richard

David R · 26th September 2022, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Birds don't sing upside down, and the shield motif on the other side of the chape is also upside down.

Makes no sense so I'll vote for a 'married' piece with Indian made blade.

My thought as well.

Richard G · 26th September 2022, 12:30 PM

The scabbard fittings appear to be orientated so as to be viewed with the chape up, apart from one side of the locket, which is the 'right' way up.
I wonder if it is a piece put together by a silversmith, intent on his silversmithing, rather than by a sword or knife cutler, who would probably have a more instinctive feel for the orientation of fittings.
Best wishes
Richard

24th September 2022, 06:09 PM	#1
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 239	more pictures: Attached Images

25th September 2022, 06:49 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,776	It has always been my understanding that a sword is viewed being held upright, not downward as when worn. However looking at the vegetal pattern on the throat it does seem the leaves are pointing upward so would be inverted if sword viewed upright. This type of blade is not as far as I have known been produced in India, even in the modern reproduction market. It is known that the 'sickle' mark often (even almost typically) occurs on the blades of North Indian sabers known as paluoar and Afghan associated, but these are not of the same character as this. The thistle as seen in the floral pierced pattern on the chape is of course typically regarded as Scottish. The black background against silver is of course mindful of the bidri metal work in India, so bring drawn to that association seems well placed. I will say that there was a degree of Scottish presence in India during the Raj in the 18th c. so there is some commemorative potential in some degree, but this seemingly Austrian blade is it seems misplaced in that notion. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th September 2022 at 07:19 PM.

24th September 2022, 07:42 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,264	The scabbard chape appears to be upside down. Could this be a repurposed fitting from a decorative element of a different scabbard?

25th September 2022, 03:11 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,776	While these 'sickle marks' are typically referred to as 'Genoan' that is from the numbers of North Italian blades with these marks that came out of Genoa as it was a port exporting them. Some actually had 'GENOA' stamped along with them which led to that association. The marks were used in varying cities in North Italy and often in multiples, variations and with other marks. The 'sickle' mark was also notably used in Styrian centers, and as this does seem to be a 'Germanic' blade from a pioneer or auxiliary forces troop, that seems quite possible. The mounts on this blade are interesting. Possibly something for an officer in a 'Freikorps' unit in Austria? These were units based on the mid 18th c. 'pandours' of the Austrian army who favored exotic oriental fashion and weaponry. In "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert (1962) in a panel of sword blade forms, that clipped point is termed 'pandour point'.

25th September 2022, 04:49 PM	#4
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 415	Old blade, repurposed silver work on scabbard, odd and seemingly unused hilt, I don't see it as representative of any particular culture, rather an assemblage possibly completed in India for an aficionado of the eclectic. I'm probably wrong, of course. Kinda pretty, for all that; certainly eye-catching.

25th September 2022, 05:35 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,776	European artisans were copying 'oriental' styling in sword mountings in the 18th century, especially with dark background and silver themes from the orient (shakudo and Tonquinese hilted small swords). I have seen Chinese and other forms produced in European weapon forms. The 'pandour' units inspired auxiliary and specialized units with this type theme using 'exotic' weapons and fashions in imitation of these in European armies into early 1800s. Napoleon was particularly fond of these type units, and his Zouave units even influenced the American military in the Civil War, The British often favored 'oriental' (which included India and Middle East in that parlance) styles in their officers swords. There are many examples of 'foreign' forms and styling in these typically 'one off' specially commissioned weapons. With this clearly German or Austrian style blade I still think it is an unusual example for an officer in a flamboyant style in the units described. This is most unusual however as this type of 'creation' is typically more expected with cavalry sabers, or officers swords with full length blades.

25th September 2022, 09:36 PM	#8
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim. Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down. Best wishes Richard

26th September 2022, 12:30 PM	#10
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	The scabbard fittings appear to be orientated so as to be viewed with the chape up, apart from one side of the locket, which is the 'right' way up. I wonder if it is a piece put together by a silversmith, intent on his silversmithing, rather than by a sword or knife cutler, who would probably have a more instinctive feel for the orientation of fittings. Best wishes Richard