Arabian beauty 1 translation?

eftihis · 24th April 2005, 09:14 PM

Dear friends,
Here is a very nice silver mounted arabian sword. It reminds me some swords from Syria, but i am not sure. Do you have any clues regarding its specific area of origin? There is an inscription on the scabbard that ould help us if somebody can translate it. The symbol of the "hand" on the scabbard and handle must have a special meaning. It is a very nice sword overall with a very dark blade from age, which i am not sure how should i clean.
Regards to all!

RSWORD · 25th April 2005, 12:13 AM

I would classify this as an Arabian Shamshir with much of the silverwork decor commonly found on Arabic swords. The "hook" pommel of the handle does suggest a Syrian influence but I wouldn't say that one feature alone would make me lean towards Syria solely. As you say, perhaps the inscription could bear some insight but unfortunately I am unable to assist with that. The hand motif is most interesting and something I have not run across before. Perhaps it represents a person who held a particular post or rank and that hand symbol symbolizes that office. I bet the inscription might lend some foresight into that regards as it may have a persons name or rank inscribed. Another lovely sword.

M.carter · 25th April 2005, 01:24 PM

Hello Eftihis,

This sword is indeed syrian, typical syrian hilt, crossguard and scabbard, but the blade looks weird. Syrian blades do not have these types of strongly acute tips. I can read most of the script on the scabbard back. I shall soon post what it reads.

EDIT: ahh here, the seventh pic down reads:" Shighil Hilmi Attallah Al-Tirzi Bi-Ghazza sanat (?) hijriya"

Which translates as:" Work of Hilmi Attalah Al-Tirzi in Gaza (gaza??!!) in the year of (I cannot read the date properly) AH"

As this sword was certainly made during Ottoman times, gaza could be logical, as it all was part of Greater Syria "Al-Sham", but Ive never heard of swordmaking in Gaza.

M.carter · 25th April 2005, 01:58 PM

The inscription between the two hangers reads "Jum'a Saleem Al-Shinyoora". Probably the owners name.

You can also see the Ottoman Crescent and Star sign on the hook pommel.

M.carter · 25th April 2005, 02:01 PM

Eftihis, if you can provide us with a closer, higher resolution pic of the indicated part of the inscription below, maybe I can read the date of this sword and when it was made.

Mark · 25th April 2005, 02:44 PM

I finally may have something to contribute to a shamshir discussion! I believe that the rose, which is being held or reached for by the hand, is a Sufic (Sufitic? Of the Sufi) symbol frequently appearing in Sufi poetry. I believe it represents nostalgia, longing for happiness/perfection/purity. Something like that.

M.carter · 25th April 2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I finally may have something to contribute to a shamshir discussion! I believe that the rose, which is being held or reached for by the hand, is a Sufic (Sufitic? Of the Sufi) symbol frequently appearing in Sufi poetry. I believe it represents nostalgia, longing for happiness/perfection/purity. Something like that.

Very Probable Mark, as there is a large Suffi population in Syria and that region.

Andrew · 25th April 2005, 06:34 PM

Many thanks for the translation, Mark (Carter).

M.carter · 25th April 2005, 07:36 PM

You're always welcome Andrew

eftihis · 25th April 2005, 09:58 PM

Thank you all very much for the contribution.
I will be near the sword in 1-2 days and send a better photo. The date though looks like 1151, doesnt it? Althought this seems quite an early date.

Andrew · 26th April 2005, 02:52 AM

If that's in the Arabic calendar, wouldn't that be late 18th century?

M.carter · 26th April 2005, 01:24 PM

This is certainly an arab calendar, as these style of weapons did not exist in the 12th century AD.

eftihis · 30th April 2005, 08:06 AM

Dear Friends,
I took some more photos of the date as closer as i could. As i said the date seems as 1151 (in islamic calendar ofcourse, arround 1740?) but what about the small symbol immediately after the date?

M.carter · 1st May 2005, 07:14 PM

Sorry guys for the very late reply, but my DSL wasnt working for five days in a row, and no other source for internet.Anyway, that date definetly reads 1035, but I really dont no what that is in the euro calendar, anyone here has some sort of converter?

Andrew · 1st May 2005, 07:51 PM

Using this calculator ( http://links.spiralwave.co.uk/calconvert.php ) 1035 converts to 1625 a.d.

eftihis · 1st May 2005, 10:07 PM

Dear friends, i have in front of me the page with the translation of the islamic numbers and i tried to read them again,and i think that if we start the reading of the date just one letter before, the date becomes 1101 (=1689) which also looks early for this sword. If we read it like this there are just 2 other letters that they may symbolise the month, or something different.
Please see this reading and tell me if it is possible to read the date this way.
Is it possible for this sword to be so old???

M.carter · 2nd May 2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Dear friends, i have in front of me the page with the translation of the islamic numbers and i tried to read them again,and i think that if we start the reading of the date just one letter before, the date becomes 1101 (=1689) which also looks early for this sword. If we read it like this there are just 2 other letters that they may symbolise the month, or something different.
Please see this reading and tell me if it is possible to read the date this way.
Is it possible for this sword to be so old???

Eftihis, look closely, the last digit you are reading "1" is not a one. Thats a "3" in arabic, with that three point horizontal squibble on its top left, thats one digit.

Tariq · 5th August 2005, 11:09 PM

The date on the shamshir actually reads 1355 and is written above the arabic word "sina" or year. The dot that is in the middle of the date is really part of a letter from this word and not a zero. so from left to right the digits are 1, 3, 5, 5. hopefully this will help.

Andrew · 6th August 2005, 01:43 AM

Welcome, Tariq! It is excellent to have another member who can read arabic.

ham · 6th August 2005, 10:14 PM

Gentlemen,
Though very similar in form and embellishment to Ottoman Arab provincial work, this saber is Bosnian-- the observation that the rose invokes Sufism is correct-- Bosnian Muslims were known for particular schools of Sufism. Actually, downcurved pommels are found on Slavic weapons as well as Arab ones, though more rarely. One of the distinguishing factors is that they are often of a piece with the grip as this example is. Several portraits of Cossack hetmans and officers from the early-mid 19th century wearing sabers with such pommels support this, see Russian Award Weapons by Durov.
As for the date, as Tariq notes, the dot indicates a "nun" as part of the word "sene" (year in Ottoman,) rather than the digit zero. Further, I believe the numerals read 1-2-4-5. The 2 appears to be a 3 but in fact that extra tooth is actually a small dent superposed over the outline of the numeral proper. This would date the sword c. 1830, which is consistent with the silverwork.

Sincerely,

Ham

24th April 2005, 09:14 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Arabian beauty 1 translation? Dear friends, Here is a very nice silver mounted arabian sword. It reminds me some swords from Syria, but i am not sure. Do you have any clues regarding its specific area of origin? There is an inscription on the scabbard that ould help us if somebody can translate it. The symbol of the "hand" on the scabbard and handle must have a special meaning. It is a very nice sword overall with a very dark blade from age, which i am not sure how should i clean. Regards to all! Attached Images

25th April 2005, 01:24 PM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hello Eftihis, This sword is indeed syrian, typical syrian hilt, crossguard and scabbard, but the blade looks weird. Syrian blades do not have these types of strongly acute tips. I can read most of the script on the scabbard back. I shall soon post what it reads. EDIT: ahh here, the seventh pic down reads:" Shighil Hilmi Attallah Al-Tirzi Bi-Ghazza sanat (?) hijriya" Which translates as:" Work of Hilmi Attalah Al-Tirzi in Gaza (gaza??!!) in the year of (I cannot read the date properly) AH" As this sword was certainly made during Ottoman times, gaza could be logical, as it all was part of Greater Syria "Al-Sham", but Ive never heard of swordmaking in Gaza. Last edited by M.carter; 25th April 2005 at 01:56 PM.

25th April 2005, 02:01 PM	#5
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Eftihis, if you can provide us with a closer, higher resolution pic of the indicated part of the inscription below, maybe I can read the date of this sword and when it was made. Attached Images

30th April 2005, 08:06 AM	#13
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Dear Friends, I took some more photos of the date as closer as i could. As i said the date seems as 1151 (in islamic calendar ofcourse, arround 1740?) but what about the small symbol immediately after the date? Attached Images

1st May 2005, 10:07 PM	#16
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Dear friends, i have in front of me the page with the translation of the islamic numbers and i tried to read them again,and i think that if we start the reading of the date just one letter before, the date becomes 1101 (=1689) which also looks early for this sword. If we read it like this there are just 2 other letters that they may symbolise the month, or something different. Please see this reading and tell me if it is possible to read the date this way. Is it possible for this sword to be so old??? Last edited by eftihis; 1st May 2005 at 11:35 PM.

25th April 2005, 12:13 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I would classify this as an Arabian Shamshir with much of the silverwork decor commonly found on Arabic swords. The "hook" pommel of the handle does suggest a Syrian influence but I wouldn't say that one feature alone would make me lean towards Syria solely. As you say, perhaps the inscription could bear some insight but unfortunately I am unable to assist with that. The hand motif is most interesting and something I have not run across before. Perhaps it represents a person who held a particular post or rank and that hand symbol symbolizes that office. I bet the inscription might lend some foresight into that regards as it may have a persons name or rank inscribed. Another lovely sword.

25th April 2005, 01:58 PM	#4
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	The inscription between the two hangers reads "Jum'a Saleem Al-Shinyoora". Probably the owners name. You can also see the Ottoman Crescent and Star sign on the hook pommel.

25th April 2005, 02:44 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I finally may have something to contribute to a shamshir discussion! I believe that the rose, which is being held or reached for by the hand, is a Sufic (Sufitic? Of the Sufi) symbol frequently appearing in Sufi poetry. I believe it represents nostalgia, longing for happiness/perfection/purity. Something like that.

25th April 2005, 06:34 PM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Many thanks for the translation, Mark (Carter).

25th April 2005, 07:36 PM	#9
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	You're always welcome Andrew

25th April 2005, 09:58 PM	#10
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Thank you all very much for the contribution. I will be near the sword in 1-2 days and send a better photo. The date though looks like 1151, doesnt it? Althought this seems quite an early date.

26th April 2005, 02:52 AM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	If that's in the Arabic calendar, wouldn't that be late 18th century?

26th April 2005, 01:24 PM	#12
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	This is certainly an arab calendar, as these style of weapons did not exist in the 12th century AD.

1st May 2005, 07:14 PM	#14
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Sorry guys for the very late reply, but my DSL wasnt working for five days in a row, and no other source for internet.Anyway, that date definetly reads 1035, but I really dont no what that is in the euro calendar, anyone here has some sort of converter?

1st May 2005, 07:51 PM	#15
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Using this calculator ( http://links.spiralwave.co.uk/calconvert.php ) 1035 converts to 1625 a.d.

5th August 2005, 11:09 PM	#18
Tariq Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1	The date on the shamshir actually reads 1355 and is written above the arabic word "sina" or year. The dot that is in the middle of the date is really part of a letter from this word and not a zero. so from left to right the digits are 1, 3, 5, 5. hopefully this will help.

6th August 2005, 01:43 AM	#19
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Welcome, Tariq! It is excellent to have another member who can read arabic.

6th August 2005, 10:14 PM	#20
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Though very similar in form and embellishment to Ottoman Arab provincial work, this saber is Bosnian-- the observation that the rose invokes Sufism is correct-- Bosnian Muslims were known for particular schools of Sufism. Actually, downcurved pommels are found on Slavic weapons as well as Arab ones, though more rarely. One of the distinguishing factors is that they are often of a piece with the grip as this example is. Several portraits of Cossack hetmans and officers from the early-mid 19th century wearing sabers with such pommels support this, see Russian Award Weapons by Durov. As for the date, as Tariq notes, the dot indicates a "nun" as part of the word "sene" (year in Ottoman,) rather than the digit zero. Further, I believe the numerals read 1-2-4-5. The 2 appears to be a 3 but in fact that extra tooth is actually a small dent superposed over the outline of the numeral proper. This would date the sword c. 1830, which is consistent with the silverwork. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 6th August 2005 at 10:25 PM.