steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

David · 19th February 2007, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

One might have to be a little more sensitive to these matters when it involves art works from communities that live in the same country/nation rather than trophies from foreign wars. I am not from the give back camp in latter case.

Tim, daggers like the Brown Bear dagger Yanyeidi shows and the Killer Whale dagger i posted early may very well have been considered "trophies of war" by the Europeans who originally collected them, however these daggers were never meant nor used as weapons of war. They are ritual daggers with deep spiritual significance to their people which i can only image were looted since these daggers would never have been sold or traded to the European invaders. It would indeed be interesting to find out just how they ended up in these museums to begin with. I would not be as quick to advocate giving back battlefield pick-ups to their nation of origin. These daggers fall into a completely different catagory, don't you think? I comment the museums for having the frame of mind to do the right thing in these cases.

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2007, 07:59 PM

David I agree with you completely. One thing why these are possibly a little more specially sensitive is that the looters were equally Americans maybe more so than Europeans in this case. The looting of African palaces is not the same as battle field pick ups. I can justify a refusal to give back as I am in the UK and not African. Not terribly pleasant and a bit blunt. The Native American question is a little more difficult, I think?

Yanyeidi · 19th February 2007, 08:30 PM

NAGPRA allows for the return of human remains, objects looted from graves, and objects needed and used in ongoing ceremonies, and objects sold or otherwise removed that are communal property and not individually owned.

The Killer Whale Dagger was known as a "slave killer", but it was bragged about as having "never shed any blood." When a slave was brought out to be killed in the name of something this dagger would be pointed at the slave and a thrusting motion made. If the slave wasn't released, "it" would be killed with another dagger called "goox du een", a double ended dagger.

We have no idea how many slaves were put to death by this one dagger. To the family, it is priceless. When the caretaker sold it, it caused a rift in the family for many years.

Khaa dachxhan, a grandchild is usually called to carry the dagger in during our ceremonies, one whose paternal grandfather is from the clan that owns the dagger. Care is made never to point the dagger at anyone and to keep the tip covered.

At times of dispute the caretaker may flash the tip at someone he has a disagreement with,.."to get the point across" that the person is out of order. I've only seen this done once.

As for the Bear Dagger of the Teikhweidi clan, it was probably looted by the U.S. Navy during the shelling and sacking of the village of Angoon on October 18, 1882 in which six children died, all the canoes but one were destroyed, and all the winter supplies burned along with the houses. Several stories of this can be read by typing in these details in search fields.

One old man remembered his grandmother talking about this dagger-- his grandmother as a young woman had survived the bombardment but she didn't know what happened to the dagger afterwards.

Both daggers are back in ceremonial use. Today, they are pointed at the property to be given away as "it is killed." They are back where they belong, with life back in them, in a living culture.

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2007, 08:38 PM

Wonderful information. The British museum has a lot of NW artifacts collected by Capt Cook. The Gun boat diplomacy is most fascinating to hear of. Are modern versions created?

David · 19th February 2007, 09:19 PM

Thanks for that detailed and fascinating history Yanyeidi. As you have revealled, sometimes these sacred artifacts are actually sold by the natives themselves, but as community property this not through consent of the tribe, but the through the greed of a single individual.
Tim, my use of the word European was merely to make a distinction between the Indians and the invaders. I merely meant people of European descent. Not just Americans, but also Canadians had a hand in the affairs of NWC indians. Neither was particularly more sympathetic or understanding of native ways and culture.

Jeff D · 19th February 2007, 09:51 PM

The return of cultural properties to the people that own them are not unique to native North Americans. In 1978 Canada signed the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property act. Essentially this means any signing member countrys can buy back any cultural artifacts if they were illegally removed. So by all means Fenris try to get back your claymore.

Lets face it as nice as that dagger would look on my wall, I would rather it be where Yanyeidi has placed it.

Jeff

Yanyeidi · 25th February 2007, 11:54 PM

Oops, that should read October 26, 1882.

October 18 is "Alaska Day'-- when Alaska celebrates the purchase of Alaska from Russia-- actually all they owned was inside the stockade at Sitka as they were scared to death of the Tlingits, and only sold trading rights with that small piece of real estate; somehow the U.S. thought they bought the whole territory!

archer · 4th December 2010, 07:40 AM

Here's some info on the early metal smiths: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12353
Steve

Billman · 4th December 2010, 06:21 PM

Wood burning kilns can reach temperatures of 1300 degrees Celsius with natural draft, but require dry timber, preferably hardwood, and often several days to reach this. Wood firing can thus be used for smelting non ferrous metals, and is are hot enough for porcelain. However, to reach temperatures high enough for iron and steel wood is not sufficient, and it needs to be converted to charcoal.

Additionally most charcoal forges or furnaces require forced draft to reach temperatures hot enough to reduce iron ore (typically 1900 degrees C at the bottom, 1300 degrees C at the top), and the additional carbon that is present in charcoal to aid the reduction process.

I guess also at high altitudes there is a need for much greater volumes of air than at sea level. Iron furnaces were present in the French Alps at heights from 500 to 1000m, but the Andes have an average height of over 4000m.
Large volumes of air require some form of mecahnical blower - bellows or fan, and a power source, e.g. water wheel - so most iron and steel works were situated at the lower end of valleys with a good flow of water.

Small pot bellows, as used in the African furnaces can be used to smelt small ingots of iron, enough for one or two blades - but again the fuel is charcoal, not wood.

Iron working tends also to a result of a stable population, not a migrant community as much of North America indian populations were - they tended to pack up their tents and follow the herds of bison - so I guess this explains why it was never developed there, and the Inuit only used meteroric iron...

The stable societies of the central and south Americas, e.g. Maya amd Inca, did have metal working as demonstrated by their gold objects - but it would appear they never progressed to iron smelting. Question - did they have the knowledge of charcoal making?? This may have been a significant limiting factor......

fearn · 4th December 2010, 07:26 PM

According to this Study, to smelt metal on the altiplano, the Spanish had to adopt an indigenous method of channeling the wind into the furnace, since bellows didn't work. I think they did that on Sri Lanka as well? The problem is that most of the metals they were smelting were copper and silver from the mines. From what I've been able to find, bronze technology developed by around 1000 CE in the Andes. It's hard to tell how common bronze production was, but the Inkans did use iron bolts to hold some of their stones together, so it wasn't too rare.

Archeologists think the Precolumbian andean peoples used charcoal and possibly coal as fuels (link). However, the literature is annoying, because the archeologists refer to burned wood in digs as charcoal, and that makes searching for references a bit harder.

So I guess iron smelting would have been possible, but the Andean peoples never got to it. Just one of those things: prior to Columbus, there were more people living in the high Andes than there are now, so I suspect they simply had other priorities, and lots of tough rocks lying around, free for the taking, when they wanted to hit each other with something hard.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 4th December 2010, 08:16 PM

Not being qualifed this forum gives us ordinary folk a mouth piece. I do not see why small amounts of iron crossed the Bering striaghts long before Columbus and the modern historical notion of Russia. One can research cross Bering trade for other commoderties.

19th February 2007, 08:30 PM	#3
Yanyeidi Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3	Native American Graves Protection & Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) 1990 NAGPRA allows for the return of human remains, objects looted from graves, and objects needed and used in ongoing ceremonies, and objects sold or otherwise removed that are communal property and not individually owned. The Killer Whale Dagger was known as a "slave killer", but it was bragged about as having "never shed any blood." When a slave was brought out to be killed in the name of something this dagger would be pointed at the slave and a thrusting motion made. If the slave wasn't released, "it" would be killed with another dagger called "goox du een", a double ended dagger. We have no idea how many slaves were put to death by this one dagger. To the family, it is priceless. When the caretaker sold it, it caused a rift in the family for many years. Khaa dachxhan, a grandchild is usually called to carry the dagger in during our ceremonies, one whose paternal grandfather is from the clan that owns the dagger. Care is made never to point the dagger at anyone and to keep the tip covered. At times of dispute the caretaker may flash the tip at someone he has a disagreement with,.."to get the point across" that the person is out of order. I've only seen this done once. As for the Bear Dagger of the Teikhweidi clan, it was probably looted by the U.S. Navy during the shelling and sacking of the village of Angoon on October 18, 1882 in which six children died, all the canoes but one were destroyed, and all the winter supplies burned along with the houses. Several stories of this can be read by typing in these details in search fields. One old man remembered his grandmother talking about this dagger-- his grandmother as a young woman had survived the bombardment but she didn't know what happened to the dagger afterwards. Both daggers are back in ceremonial use. Today, they are pointed at the property to be given away as "it is killed." They are back where they belong, with life back in them, in a living culture.

25th February 2007, 11:54 PM	#7
Yanyeidi Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3	Angoon bombardment Oops, that should read October 26, 1882. October 18 is "Alaska Day'-- when Alaska celebrates the purchase of Alaska from Russia-- actually all they owned was inside the stockade at Sitka as they were scared to death of the Tlingits, and only sold trading rights with that small piece of real estate; somehow the U.S. thought they bought the whole territory!

4th December 2010, 07:40 AM	#8
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Northwest Coast Metal work Here's some info on the early metal smiths: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12353 Steve

4th December 2010, 07:26 PM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	According to this Study, to smelt metal on the altiplano, the Spanish had to adopt an indigenous method of channeling the wind into the furnace, since bellows didn't work. I think they did that on Sri Lanka as well? The problem is that most of the metals they were smelting were copper and silver from the mines. From what I've been able to find, bronze technology developed by around 1000 CE in the Andes. It's hard to tell how common bronze production was, but the Inkans did use iron bolts to hold some of their stones together, so it wasn't too rare. Archeologists think the Precolumbian andean peoples used charcoal and possibly coal as fuels (link). However, the literature is annoying, because the archeologists refer to burned wood in digs as charcoal, and that makes searching for references a bit harder. So I guess iron smelting would have been possible, but the Andean peoples never got to it. Just one of those things: prior to Columbus, there were more people living in the high Andes than there are now, so I suspect they simply had other priorities, and lots of tough rocks lying around, free for the taking, when they wanted to hit each other with something hard. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 4th December 2010 at 08:19 PM.

19th February 2007, 07:59 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	David I agree with you completely. One thing why these are possibly a little more specially sensitive is that the looters were equally Americans maybe more so than Europeans in this case. The looting of African palaces is not the same as battle field pick ups. I can justify a refusal to give back as I am in the UK and not African. Not terribly pleasant and a bit blunt. The Native American question is a little more difficult, I think?

19th February 2007, 08:38 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	Wonderful information. The British museum has a lot of NW artifacts collected by Capt Cook. The Gun boat diplomacy is most fascinating to hear of. Are modern versions created?

19th February 2007, 09:19 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,051	Thanks for that detailed and fascinating history Yanyeidi. As you have revealled, sometimes these sacred artifacts are actually sold by the natives themselves, but as community property this not through consent of the tribe, but the through the greed of a single individual. Tim, my use of the word European was merely to make a distinction between the Indians and the invaders. I merely meant people of European descent. Not just Americans, but also Canadians had a hand in the affairs of NWC indians. Neither was particularly more sympathetic or understanding of native ways and culture.

19th February 2007, 09:51 PM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	The return of cultural properties to the people that own them are not unique to native North Americans. In 1978 Canada signed the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property act. Essentially this means any signing member countrys can buy back any cultural artifacts if they were illegally removed. So by all means Fenris try to get back your claymore. Lets face it as nice as that dagger would look on my wall, I would rather it be where Yanyeidi has placed it. Jeff

4th December 2010, 06:21 PM	#9
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Wood burning kilns can reach temperatures of 1300 degrees Celsius with natural draft, but require dry timber, preferably hardwood, and often several days to reach this. Wood firing can thus be used for smelting non ferrous metals, and is are hot enough for porcelain. However, to reach temperatures high enough for iron and steel wood is not sufficient, and it needs to be converted to charcoal. Additionally most charcoal forges or furnaces require forced draft to reach temperatures hot enough to reduce iron ore (typically 1900 degrees C at the bottom, 1300 degrees C at the top), and the additional carbon that is present in charcoal to aid the reduction process. I guess also at high altitudes there is a need for much greater volumes of air than at sea level. Iron furnaces were present in the French Alps at heights from 500 to 1000m, but the Andes have an average height of over 4000m. Large volumes of air require some form of mecahnical blower - bellows or fan, and a power source, e.g. water wheel - so most iron and steel works were situated at the lower end of valleys with a good flow of water. Small pot bellows, as used in the African furnaces can be used to smelt small ingots of iron, enough for one or two blades - but again the fuel is charcoal, not wood. Iron working tends also to a result of a stable population, not a migrant community as much of North America indian populations were - they tended to pack up their tents and follow the herds of bison - so I guess this explains why it was never developed there, and the Inuit only used meteroric iron... The stable societies of the central and south Americas, e.g. Maya amd Inca, did have metal working as demonstrated by their gold objects - but it would appear they never progressed to iron smelting. Question - did they have the knowledge of charcoal making?? This may have been a significant limiting factor......

4th December 2010, 08:16 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	Not being qualifed this forum gives us ordinary folk a mouth piece. I do not see why small amounts of iron crossed the Bering striaghts long before Columbus and the modern historical notion of Russia. One can research cross Bering trade for other commoderties.