Dating the Schiavons sword

[Cathey]

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

As far as I can see from the pictures, the cap runs up to the lower edge of the actual rain guard that is built into the grip, so I don't think it's actually intended to be a rain guard, but rather a guard plate to protect the fingers by closing the largish opening at the bottom of the guard. The diagram from his site calls it a "massive silver guard". You can make out the opening of the rain guard inside the opening in the guard plate in the picture below.

It looks like the scabbard on the one from Andrew Garcia's website has some chafe marks on it and I'm guessing that's how far the scabbard went into the (actual) rain guard (presumably the top of the scabbard is intended to fit into that?), in which case the metal plate would not funnel water into the scabbard but only towards the outside of it. But I'm just speculating here.

[urbanspaceman]

Further speculation:
looking at the measurements, I don't think the scabbard ever went that far into a rain-guard; I think the chafing is a result of a locket... removed when this plate was added.
Whadayathink?

[werecow]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Further speculation:
looking at the measurements, I don't think the scabbard ever went that far into a rain-guard; I think the chafing is a result of a locket... removed when this plate was added.
Whadayathink?

I guess it's possible... But just from looking (with my admittedly somewhat untrained eyes) at how the leather looks near the chape, I would think it'd be more damaged, and the rain guard seems historic so you'd think it'd fit over the scabbard at least to some extent because that's kind of the point of having a rain guard...
And furthermore, my question would be why? Why remove an antique locket and then drill holes through a nice looking guard on a super expensive sword to add a guard plate that is anomalous for the type?
But people do weird things sometimes I suppose.

EDIT: As an aside, I found another example with a rain guard (though it's hard to see) and it also does not have a locket on the scabbard. Pictures added (more at the link).

EDIT: Argh why is this image upload thing so fickle? Trying to upload a better version of the full sized image but it seems to just be loading the older version.

[urbanspaceman]

I suspect you are right; on reflection, the missing locket idea probably does not hold up.

[Jim McDougall]

This is the first time I have seen this term used for many years, and I knew I had found some curious reference to this many years ago. Unfortunately while I kept images of a leather example of one of these, I did not note the source.

With the metal shield screwed to the bottom of the trellis on the schiavona noted, it does not seem that purpose would be likely, but more in the type of pragmatic lore of the guardapolvo (dust guard) on cup hilt rapiers.

Attached is the admittedly vague reference from one of my very old notebooks, just for comparison.

[werecow]

Just noticed that this schiavona also has a guard plate.