African cuirass?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa...

Here you beat me, Jim; esoterica falls out of my jurisdiction .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.. bullet proof or not, natives tended to believe something would be bullet proof if the 'magic' afforded it was intended to make it so...

Perhaps those under such influence wouldn't even need to armour the cuirass with iron in the first place ? .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.. peoples were not necessarily well informed in the dynamics and ballistics of firearms, but were inclined to follow more the word of their shamans, medicine men etc...

A bit of a reducive approach, i am afraid.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...To take an old cuirass, bolster it with iron for structure and protection from bullets to me, makes sense...

You mean taking an old reptile skin, not a cuirass; we don't know if it was already an armour implement before the present assembly, do we ?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

. The cross, as I had previously noted, was a commonly applied device from the Portuguese presence in West Africa, and adopted by the native people as a significant symbol of power or magic. It seems this became a well used element in West African material culture...

More precisely, managing to christianize their kings, giving them diplomatic gifts (quoting you) which in such way became symbols of power, although not easily accessible to their subjects. But that is another story.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...the use of European components simply reflects the influence, which was of course well established there.

Like saying that this discussed cuirass shape follows European patterns ? could well be.
For your archives i will here upload a rare XV century breastplate, with the Cross of Christ embossed (collection Rainer Dahenhardt).

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?

You got me wrong, Jim; my bad english fault. My understanding places both croc hide and the hard chest piece in the same environment.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.The 'recyclng' and repurposng of materials is well known in Africa, in Sudan and other regions sword blades are made of old truck springs.

Like in other continents; comes to mind cangaceiros (and not only) swords made of truck springs in Brazil.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I still recall the Sudanese helmets embellished with forks and spoons .

Yet Panoleon cuirass shows us an austere posture.


Yours faithful.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Here you beat me, Jim; esoterica falls out of my jurisdiction .


Perhaps those under such influence wouldn't even need to armour the cuirass with iron in the first place ? .


A bit of a reducive approach, i am afraid.


You mean taking an old reptile skin, not a cuirass; we don't know if it was already an armour implement before the present assembly, do we ?


More precisely, managing to christianize their kings, giving them diplomatic gifts (quoting you) which in such way became symbols of power, although not easily accessible to their subjects. But that is another story.


Like saying that this discussed cuirass shape follows European patterns ? could well be.
For your archives i will here upload a rare XV century breastplate, with the Cross of Christ embossed (collection Rainer Dahenhardt).


You got me wrong, Jim; my bad english fault. My understanding places both croc hide and the hard chest piece in the same environment.


Like in other continents; comes to mind cangaceiros (and not only) swords made of truck springs in Brazil.


Yet Panoleon cuirass shows us an austere posture


Yours faithful.


.

Excellent redaction of my synopsis Fernando !!!

Looking into the esoterica of symbolism in the study of ethnographic arms and armor is pretty essential to help identiify and classify items which are not neatly categorized in the usual references.
It is rather like the study of Masonic swords and regalia in the 'Western' sense. Personally I find it one of most fascinating aspects of research, and I guess that evolved from the study of markings and inscriptions in sword blades over many years.
Actually, you helped me many times with numbers of those.

It is quite true that if a native warrior was sufficiently convinced of the apotropaic potential of the talismanically imbued armor (actually reptilian hide fashioned into a cuirass possibly European influenced in form)...the iron shield would be redundant.
However, even tradition bound to wear the armor which has been faithfully worn in the earlier years of these societies, it would not be surprising to see the use of the iron under shield pragmatically , given the more modern dynamics of firearms.

While it is true that this metal would not deflect a bullet of high velocity, it must be remembered that in the 19th century, black powder rounds were of low velocity. In many instances, rounds barely penetrated the target owing to many circumstances, quality and condition of powder, improper loading etc.
Getting into the debate on these ballistics issues of the effectiveness of these firearms used in these regions in the 19th century is beyond the scope of this discussion, but certainly pertinent with respect to my observation.

One analogy I would add however, was the case of an American Indian chief in Texas territory in 19th c. known as Chief Iron Shirt. He apparently wore either a cuirass remnant or perhaps mail from an earlier Spanish explorer, and the warriors believed he was magic and impervious to bullets, as they literally bounced off of him.
His luck ran out one day when a sharpshooter's round entered his body through an exposed spot from likely an upraised arm.

That said, whether the natives who wore these types of armor believed the assurances of metaphysics or took the pragmatic approach would be a matter of considerable speculation in qualifying, so my comment was perhaps too broadly noted.

The presence of the Christian cross is simply noted to recognize the West African likelihood of the European styled 'cuirass' (made from reptile hide) as seen often in their material culture there. This feature is also seen in the stylized interpretations of European swords with these on the quillon terminals (usually regarded as Congolese but the influence was from Portuguese traders in West Africa). It has been my understanding that these crosses were seen more in a magic or power sense than any sort of religious quantification.

Best
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is rather like the study of Masonic swords and regalia in the 'Western' sense...

Another theme that is not one of my favorites .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... it is true that this metal would not deflect a bullet of high velocity, it must be remembered that in the 19th century, black powder rounds were of low velocity. In many instances, rounds barely penetrated the target owing to many circumstances, quality and condition of powder, improper loading etc...

Distance is the business, Jim, distance. At close range, even the weakest of powders may boost a projectile strongly enough to penetrate in a mild wall. Remember that already in earlier centuries the smith had to shoot a test round at the cuirasses plate, to ensure its bullet resistence to customers.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... into the debate on these ballistics issues of the effectiveness of these firearms used in these regions in the 19th century is beyond the scope of this discussion, but certainly pertinent with respect to my observation...

I'd say it is within scope indeed, as the consistency of the iron plate in Panoleon's cuirass will help pondering on whether such is an operational item or a replica ... symbolic or theatrical.
... Reason why i have asked him to tell us the weight of his example, to which he will hopefully answer.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... presence of the Christian cross is simply noted to recognize the West African likelihood of the European styled 'cuirass' (made from reptile hide) as seen often in their material culture there. This feature is also seen in the stylized interpretations of European swords with these on the quillon terminals (usually regarded as Congolese but the influence was from Portuguese traders in West Africa). It has been my understanding that these crosses were seen more in a magic or power sense than any sort of religious quantification...

Why not assuming that, if the cross symbol was good enough to make African natives believe that this had magic powers like turning them imortal, why then also not assuming that European (Portuguese) natives originally carry such believe with them and so transferred it to their hosts ? This is rather a complex subject, which i confess to be without knowledge. One thing is to believe that a material testimony of faith will validate our doings, as in the name of God's, like with a credential to rest in peace when we die (heaven and all), the other is that we will not die when we carry them. A further hypothesis would contemplate that, in so many cases, the bearer enjoys a determined motif (or gadget) because it is different, coming from a different world. Don't we all ? less esoteric but praticable.
Have a nice weekend, Jim .


.

[Gonzoadler]

Originally Posted by fernando

Another theme that is not one of my favorites .

... Reason why i have asked him to tell us the weight of his example, to which he will hopefully answer.

.

Panoleon already answered to this question in this thread. The weight is 2.2kg. I think that is too light for a bulletproof cuirass but enough to protect against many edged weapons.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

Panoleon already answered to this question in this thread. The weight is 2.2kg. I think that is too light for a bulletproof cuirass but enough to protect against many edged weapons.

My bad; did not pay enough attention to that.
Yes, a weight much distant to what you can call a reinforced cuirass. This way the odds split between either the 'blade proof' real thing or a decorative replica, as approached by Colin.

[drac2k]

Gonzoadler makes an excellent point that while this might not serve as protection from a bullet, this certainly would prove effective in deflecting a sword blade in the late 18th or early 19th Century which would have still been the prevalent mode of combat at that time.
To many in the forum, the mix of a European-style breastplate with rivets, and the embellished with a crocodile hide poses a problem, however to me it makes perfect sense. Throughout Africa's history, European Nations had a presence there as they were vying for Colonies for trade and to offset the power of other countries.
A present of a metal cuirass in the 1880s or 1890s to an important African person would have been highly prized. These were readily available and no longer meant to serve as protection, but more for pomp and ceremony in the West; An example that readily comes to mind is the cuirass that is still used by the English Household Cavalry Life Guards to this day. It is plausible to me that this valuable item would then be Africanized. The possibility of the rosettes in the form of the cross doesn't bother me either as there are religious battles still being engaged in that country to this day; if a Cross could protect a Crusader, why not a Chieftan or as Jim commented, it could merely be talismanic and have nothing to do with Christianity.
It has been noted that there isn't a museum number on this piece, which is valid, however in the past when I acquired several pieces formerly from a Movie Studio, they were clearly marked "Property of RKO Studio; "since this piece isn't so marked, I think that this argument is a draw, neither proving nor disproving the pieces origin.
It has also been stated that this item has been glued to the cuirass, which makes sense to me as glues have been known for centuries such as the ones used by the Mongolians and the Ottomans on their compound bows.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by drac2k

... It has also been stated that this item has been glued to the cuirass, which makes sense to me as glues have been known for centuries such as the ones used by the Mongolians and the Ottomans on their compound bows...

Not that this is a vital factor but, no glue was used to fix the hide to the chest piece, but rivets; apparently the male/female style as used in Europe (#11), which does not mean they couldn't be acquired in Africa. If i am correct, the glue possibility was mentioned to have possibly used to fill those two "missing something" holes, but Panoleon soon described the material as "some sort of molten metal. Probably lead" (#16#).
I see the point in Europeans gifting light weight cuirasses to local leaders in the late nineties but, by own historical influence, i only tended to think of gifts given (and swaped) during a much earlier period (Congo, Dahome), when heavy weight cuirasses (and swords) were of contemporary use.

[Jim McDougall]

As always, great points and observations, and a wonderfully lively discussion which I am enjoying very much.
It is true, this concerns hypotheticals, which is the texture of a discussion seeking evidence, possibilities and plausibility in lieu of provenance and documentation.
The term 'fantasy' is perhaps not best applied for an item not yet resolved as to its disposition in use, ceremonial, ritual, traditional etc. Regalia, especially in many African contexts, may be regarded as fanciful, but temporally significant to native peoples.

I still hold to my idea that this is a refurbished regalia cuirass (of hide) being used traditionally in one of West Africa's secret society groups, most likely the crocodile oriented one but could be other. Its being quite old, and coupled with an iron backing could be for many reasons, but durability seems most pragmatic.
The apotropaic properties are something we cannot address with certainty, but we know the folk reliions in West Africa deeply believed in such things.