Identifying Modern Wootz

mariusgmioc · 20th September 2019, 09:59 PM

Ariel said it quite well.

To illustrate this, I include a link to the best modern wootz patterns I have seen, made by the Russian bladesmith Ivan Kirpichev.

In the first blade you can see he managed to reproduce the Kirk Narduban and the "rose" patterns...
... yet the watering pattern is easily distiguishable from the antique ones.

And he told me that he doesn't manage to get this quality of patterning with consistency.

https://knifeandcraft.com/en/ivan-kirpichev

ariel · 20th September 2019, 11:35 PM

Kirk narduban and “Rose” are easy: they are just superficial embellishments. The blade is notched either across its width or as a rounded point, then forged, polished and etched. Notching disturbs the architecture of dendrites, and... voila!
The real trick is to obtain a sophisticated pattern on the rest of the blade.

This is why I am always amused when I read some notes about sorts of wootz:
“ The highest is Kirk narduban, after that there are Kara taban, Kara Khorasan and the lowest , - Sham”
Kirk and rose can be made on any variety of wootz and I have seen them on a lowly Sham:-) And, BTW, some people claim that the “ non-pretty” Sham and the barely recognizable Indian” salt and pepper” one are mechanically the best.
The “ beautiful” ones broke on impact and there is a case when an expensive blade fell on the floor and shattered to smithereens

RobT · 21st September 2019, 03:49 AM

Ariel,

I agree with you completely. Forging the old wootz blades was a matter of learned skill. I am a fairly good finish carpenter but even if I were given exhaustively complete plans plus the best of hand and mechanical tools, I am sure that I couldn't make a Chippendale chair to match those made by the old masters. Not only did they do their work with hand tools only, they were able to make a good living in that labor intensive environment. To be able to do this, one needs a long and diligent apprenticeship under an old master who not only molds your hand/eye skills but also your mindset.

Sincerely,
RobT

MForde · 25th September 2019, 09:40 AM

Thank you all for your replies. I think I need to see more examples as the antique wootz I've seen varies greatly in pattern and so I'd love to see some visual comparisons between old and new wootz (whether in PM or posted here).

20th September 2019, 11:35 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	J Kirk narduban and “Rose” are easy: they are just superficial embellishments. The blade is notched either across its width or as a rounded point, then forged, polished and etched. Notching disturbs the architecture of dendrites, and... voila! The real trick is to obtain a sophisticated pattern on the rest of the blade. This is why I am always amused when I read some notes about sorts of wootz: “ The highest is Kirk narduban, after that there are Kara taban, Kara Khorasan and the lowest , - Sham” Kirk and rose can be made on any variety of wootz and I have seen them on a lowly Sham:-) And, BTW, some people claim that the “ non-pretty” Sham and the barely recognizable Indian” salt and pepper” one are mechanically the best. The “ beautiful” ones broke on impact and there is a case when an expensive blade fell on the floor and shattered to smithereens Last edited by ariel; 21st September 2019 at 04:44 AM.

21st September 2019, 03:49 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 461	Skill is Necessary Ariel, I agree with you completely. Forging the old wootz blades was a matter of learned skill. I am a fairly good finish carpenter but even if I were given exhaustively complete plans plus the best of hand and mechanical tools, I am sure that I couldn't make a Chippendale chair to match those made by the old masters. Not only did they do their work with hand tools only, they were able to make a good living in that labor intensive environment. To be able to do this, one needs a long and diligent apprenticeship under an old master who not only molds your hand/eye skills but also your mindset. Sincerely, RobT

20th September 2019, 09:59 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,890	Ariel said it quite well. To illustrate this, I include a link to the best modern wootz patterns I have seen, made by the Russian bladesmith Ivan Kirpichev. In the first blade you can see he managed to reproduce the Kirk Narduban and the "rose" patterns... ... yet the watering pattern is easily distiguishable from the antique ones. And he told me that he doesn't manage to get this quality of patterning with consistency. https://knifeandcraft.com/en/ivan-kirpichev

25th September 2019, 09:40 AM	#4
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	Thank you all for your replies. I think I need to see more examples as the antique wootz I've seen varies greatly in pattern and so I'd love to see some visual comparisons between old and new wootz (whether in PM or posted here).