US Ban in Ivory - Not all bad news

[T. Koch]

Btw, the new U.S. national restrictions don't seem worse than how it's implemented here in the EU through Council Resolution in 1997 - actually you could argue that it's in fact more lenient, as (at least from how I read it) intra-state trade will still be legal without permits. In the EU you need a permit to sell pre-CITES ivory anywhere in the member states. On the other hand, the EU date for the definition of antique - and hence permissible for intra-EU trade without the need for permits cuts at 1947 - so I guess it depends on how you look at it.

[Runjeet Singh]

David, Thor,

Thanks for your responses. David, yes, you are right, I look at this subject with tunnel vision, of course there are our friends on the European forum and others who are also affected by this.

The cost to apply in the UK for an export licence has actually come down from £47 to £37. The difference I believe is that £37 is per item, and £47 was unlimited items on one application.

It's great to hear from Toch who gives an insiders optimistic view!

Regards
Runjeet

[David]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

The cost to apply in the UK for an export licence has actually come down from £47 to £37. The difference I believe is that £37 is per item, and £47 was unlimited items on one application.

Runjeet, £37 per item for the export license. But how do you prove to them that the item is indeed antique. Is CITES making that appraisal for you for the licensing fee or do you need to have an outside agency assess the ivory as antique first. Perhaps Thor has a better understanding of this having worked for CITES.
And Thor, just to get this straight, that is a complete ban on IMPORT of antique ivory into the United States, not export. That means that no matter what documentation the antique piece receives it can be stopped at the border and confiscated. Frankly i have no issues with banning post-CITES ivory. It is antique weapons that most of us collect so the ivory on them is usually antique as well. Our collecting habits will not be affected much on bans on post-CITES ivory.
Also, i'm not sure you read the ruling on intra-state trade correctly.
"We will finalize a proposed rule that will reaffirm and clarify that sales across state lines are prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, and will prohibit sales within a state unless the seller can demonstrate an item was lawfully imported prior to 1990 for African elephants and 1975 for Asian elephants, or under an exemption document. "
Again, i don't think that most of the collectors here will readily be able to "demonstrate an item was lawfully imported prior to 1990 for African elephants and 1975 for Asian elephants" so that does indeed make intra-state trade difficult if not officially illegal.

[Runjeet Singh]

Hi David,

I have been self certifying for a long time, so my appraisals are acceptable to them (with supporting evidence). But for those who have not applied before I believe independent assessments are required.

Thor may well be able to give more detail on this.

Regards,
Runjeet

[David]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

I have been self certifying for a long time, so my appraisals are acceptable to them (with supporting evidence). But for those who have not applied before I believe independent assessments are required.

And there sir, lies the rub, as they say. You are a regular dealer. The average collector will not be so certified and the costs to have such of an assessment done by an outside expert on top of the cost of the CITES licensing will be prohibitive to many.

[Runjeet Singh]

David,

I understand your scepticism and frustration for these new laws. But I started somewhere, just a young collector, and I successfully obtained a CITES certificate with the help of a established dealer in the UK.

I am sure if we look back at this thread in 12 months, and probably wonder what all the fuss was about.

I am happy to help where I can, and I know Thor has also offered his guidance.

Regards,
Runjeet

P.S. I'm not sure I like the tag of 'regular dealer'! I prefer 'seasoned collector and experienced dealer'.

[David]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

David,

I understand your scepticism and frustration for these new laws. But I started somewhere, just a young collector, and I successfully obtained a CITES certificate with the help of a established dealer in the UK.

I am sure if we look back at this thread in 12 months, and probably wonder what all the fuss was about.

I am happy to help where I can, and I know Thor has also offered his guidance.

Regards,
Runjeet

P.S. I'm not sure I like the tag of 'regular dealer'! I prefer 'seasoned collector and experienced dealer'.

Runjeet, forgive me, but you have a website, linked in your profile, where you regularly sell edged weapons. I didn't mean it as a bad word nor to over-shadow the fact that you are also a seasoned collector, merely stating a reality. ;-)
Most of us here are merely collectors who might occasionally wish to dispose of an item in our collections for one reason or another. Most of us here don't specifically collect ivory items and only occasionally encounter it on weapons we either want or own. Most of us here are not going to want to jump through all the hoops necessary to obtain a CITES certification for the very few times we might want to dispose of an ivory decorated sword or knife. And most of us here in the USA are concerned that we will no longer be able to obtain ANY weapon from overseas that uses elephant ivory because that is outright banned regardless of ANY proper paperwork. Frankly i get the large majority of my collections from overseas. Unless that part of the new rules change this will indeed still be a problem worth fussing about in 12 months i'm afraid.

[VANDOO]

THE PROBLEM WILL COME FROM THE LEGAL PREMISE THAT EVERY IVORY ITEM IS ILLEGAL UNTIL THE OWNER PROVES IT THRU DOCUMENTATION THAT THE AGENTS CHOOSE TO ACCEPT AT THEIR DESCRETION. THE TRAINING OF AGENTS WILL NO DOUBT STRESS HARSH ENFORCMENT AND GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT AND ALL PROOF SUSPECT OR TO BE IGNORED.
ALL IVORY ITEMS I HAVE ARE LEGAL BUT I AM SURE WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN DOWN ABOUT WHEN, WHERE AND HOW I GOT THEM WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS PROOF BY ANY GOVERNMENT ENFORCMENT PEOPLE. HOW MANY ANTIQUE ITEMS IN OUR COLLECTIONS ARE LEGALLY DOCUMENTED TO BE OVER 100 YEARS OLD. NOT MANY ALTHOUGH I PERSONALLY KNOW THRU EXPERIENCE WHICH ONES ARE I DOUBT I COULD PROVE IT TO THE SATISFACTION OF AN AGENT WHO WOULD NO DOUBT CONSIDER ME A BAD GUY FOR HAVING PROHIBITED IVORY. EVEN ITEMS I HAVE PERSONALLY HAD IN MY POSESSION SINCE PRE BAN TIMES WOULD ONLY HAVE MY WORD AND PERHAPS WRITTEN INFORMATION WHICH WILL BE WORTH NOTHING AS LEGAL PROOF.
I AM FOR THE PROTECTION OF ANIMAL AND PLANT SPECIES AND PROPER MANAGMENT OF THEIR NATURAL HABITATS; I TOO ABHOR WHAT IS DONE BY POACHERS AND FEEL THEY SHOULD BE DELT WITH HARSHLY. BUT OFTEN LAWS SUCH AS THIS ONE DON'T STOP THE POACHERS BUT CAN SINGLE OUT COLLECTORS THE WORLD OVER NOT ENVOLVED IN POACHING AT ALL. TO OWN A ITEM MADE OF IVORY SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU AS GUILTY AS A POACHER OR SMUGGLER.
TO RISK CONFISCATION, A HUGE FINE AND PRISION TRYING TO SELL AN OLD IVORY ITEM TO SOMEONE WHO WOULD APPRECIATE AND CHERISH IT AS I HAVE FOR YEARS OR JUST TO BURN IT LIKE THE MANY TONS OF CONFISCATED IVORY BURNS EACH YEAR TO AVOID THE TROUBLE. NO DOUBT EXAMPLES WILL BE MADE AND LIVES RUINED INNOCENT AS WELL AS GUILTY. AND PERHAPS A VERY SAD ENDING FOR SOME BEAUTIFUL OLD WORKS OF IVORY ART.
GOOD WELL INFORMED MANAGMENT AND USE OF RESOURCES FOCUSED IN THE AREAS WHERE THEY CAN DO THE MOST GOOD IS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN DESTRUCTION OF VALUABLE RESOURCES AND LAWS SUCH AS THIS VAUGE ALL ENCOMPASSING ONE.