Help with old Spanish? rapier

Conogre · 24th May 2005, 05:15 AM

When it comes to Victorian reproductions, I truly think that this is an oft maligned period in which some truly beautiful items were made (and also some horrific examples of just about everything) that manage to capture the flavor of old world skill and artistry as the age of industrialization went into full swing.
A sword such as yours might well have been used in a true "stage" setting, where it would have gotten a much more strenuous workout in repeated nightly performances as opposed to an early movie prop, which also are famous for butchering true antiques in their own right, but for use over much shorter lengths of time.
As I told you before, I suspect that it's from the early to mid 1800's, when Toledo, among other places was putting out some of its best and worst simultaneously.
Mike

Chris Evans · 24th May 2005, 05:43 AM

Hi Conogre,

I tend to agree with what you say. I have seen some rather attractive 19th century rapier and medieval repros. They were well made, but after handling them it was obvious that they were not meant for actual use; They had the usual flaws that plague repros: Over-heavy blades, poor edge geometry, and a general lack of strength in the furniture. Wall hangers.

Cheers
Chris

tom hyle · 24th May 2005, 01:38 PM

This hilt has lost either longer ends on the pas d'ans that would've come out (in?) to meet the blade right behind that little shoulder, or, which is what I had been thinking, there was a plate. Justin can probably tell us which. The sudden square plunge grinds with which the bevels end are not really unusual for late medieval European blades. Think of the daggers (eared, rondel, ballock, Basel, etc.) with a half-length false edge; it often, even usually ends in such a plunge, which is also usually seen at the base of the true edge. Think of how the grooves in cinquedeas often end in sharp square ends. These are examples of styles where it was usual. On rapiers it is more unusual, but certainly not nonexistant. What actually strikes me as odd and perhaps meaningful about the ricassoe is how long it is beyond the guard; usually they have no ricassoe outside the pas d'ans or a very short microricassoe under 1/2". This humped rebated edge area seems to be meant to somewhat make up for the slightness of the blade in making parries. What about this pommel shape? Any thoughts?

Justin · 24th May 2005, 02:58 PM

A note on the guard,it is BADLY damaged and missing several pieces including a quillion that looks like it would have followed the knuckle guard towards the pommel.The very end of the knuckle bow has a very small projection that enters a hole in the pommel.As to the edge it never had one,from what I have read on the ARMA page that doesnt seem inconsistant with the originals.

I wish I could provide better pics {I guess its my camera}but if I set the resolution any higher I have to virtually shrink the pics to thumbnails for the forum to upload them.

BTW,the sheath is definately a replacement it doesnt even take the entire blade,I agree that its probably from some sort of 19th cent military sword.

Rick · 24th May 2005, 05:42 PM

Send the large images to me (email) and I'll Photoshop them so that you can show them with size .

Rick
Unsharpen mask is a beautiful thing .

Justin · 25th May 2005, 03:27 AM

Sounds great,Rick,it will be done. Thanks!

Rick · 26th May 2005, 05:25 PM

Bump

24th May 2005, 02:58 PM	#4
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 184	A note on the guard,it is BADLY damaged and missing several pieces including a quillion that looks like it would have followed the knuckle guard towards the pommel.The very end of the knuckle bow has a very small projection that enters a hole in the pommel.As to the edge it never had one,from what I have read on the ARMA page that doesnt seem inconsistant with the originals. I wish I could provide better pics {I guess its my camera}but if I set the resolution any higher I have to virtually shrink the pics to thumbnails for the forum to upload them. BTW,the sheath is definately a replacement it doesnt even take the entire blade,I agree that its probably from some sort of 19th cent military sword. Last edited by Justin; 24th May 2005 at 03:13 PM.

24th May 2005, 05:42 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,429	Justin Send the large images to me (email) and I'll Photoshop them so that you can show them with size . Rick Unsharpen mask is a beautiful thing .

25th May 2005, 03:27 AM	#6
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 184	Sounds great,Rick,it will be done. Thanks! Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 26th May 2005 at 05:22 PM.

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24th May 2005, 05:15 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	When it comes to Victorian reproductions, I truly think that this is an oft maligned period in which some truly beautiful items were made (and also some horrific examples of just about everything) that manage to capture the flavor of old world skill and artistry as the age of industrialization went into full swing. A sword such as yours might well have been used in a true "stage" setting, where it would have gotten a much more strenuous workout in repeated nightly performances as opposed to an early movie prop, which also are famous for butchering true antiques in their own right, but for use over much shorter lengths of time. As I told you before, I suspect that it's from the early to mid 1800's, when Toledo, among other places was putting out some of its best and worst simultaneously. Mike

24th May 2005, 05:43 AM	#2
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Conogre, I tend to agree with what you say. I have seen some rather attractive 19th century rapier and medieval repros. They were well made, but after handling them it was obvious that they were not meant for actual use; They had the usual flaws that plague repros: Over-heavy blades, poor edge geometry, and a general lack of strength in the furniture. Wall hangers. Cheers Chris

24th May 2005, 01:38 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	This hilt has lost either longer ends on the pas d'ans that would've come out (in?) to meet the blade right behind that little shoulder, or, which is what I had been thinking, there was a plate. Justin can probably tell us which. The sudden square plunge grinds with which the bevels end are not really unusual for late medieval European blades. Think of the daggers (eared, rondel, ballock, Basel, etc.) with a half-length false edge; it often, even usually ends in such a plunge, which is also usually seen at the base of the true edge. Think of how the grooves in cinquedeas often end in sharp square ends. These are examples of styles where it was usual. On rapiers it is more unusual, but certainly not nonexistant. What actually strikes me as odd and perhaps meaningful about the ricassoe is how long it is beyond the guard; usually they have no ricassoe outside the pas d'ans or a very short microricassoe under 1/2". This humped rebated edge area seems to be meant to somewhat make up for the slightness of the blade in making parries. What about this pommel shape? Any thoughts?

26th May 2005, 05:25 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,429	Bump