Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[Richard]

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword. Some 2000 P1796 HC swords were sent to Sweden around 1807 and the Swedes adopted the exact pattern as their own M1808 cavalry pallasch* (although after Bernadotte become Crown Prince Charles John in 1810, they remodelled to a more French style of sword).

Ian - very nice grip restoration.

Jim - one of my 1796HC swords is by Thomas Craven who was in business from 1800-1801. Brian Robson was in error when he gave Craven's dates as 1818-20

Richard

* Source : Svenska Blankvapen by Olaf P Berg

[Richard]

But talking about Portugal, below is a p1796 HC officer's sword which has a "JR" cypher on the blade. I believe this is the cypher used by John of Portugal when Prince Regent from 1799 - 1816 (the cypher became JR IV after he became king). I think sword was used by a British officer in the Portugese army after it was reorganised by Beresford in 1808 at the command of Wellington and that it originally had a GR cypher which had been polished out and re-engraved "JR"

Richard

[fernando]

Hi again, Richard,

Originally Posted by Richard

But talking about Portugal, below is a p1796 HC officer's sword which has a "JR" cypher on the blade. I believe this is the cypher used by John of Portugal when Prince Regent from 1799 - 1816 (the cypher became JR IV after he became king). I think sword was used by a British officer in the Portugese army after it was reorganised by Beresford in 1808 at the command of Wellington and that it originally had a GR cypher which had been polished out and re-engraved "JR"

Richard

Nice sword you got there; with a hilt rather different from the current model, right?
Not trying to correct you, but the right cypher would be the monogram JPR for João Principe Regente.
He was indeed crowned in 1816, but as João VI, not IV. The new cypher would then be JVI ... no more R for regent.
But then if, as you say, your sword was used by a British officer, i don't see the logic in changing the British cypher into a Portuguese one. In such case the sword would have been 'donated' by the British, like thousands of them, and used by Portuguese ... or am i completely blocked
Fernando

[Richard]

Hi Fernando

Of course I bow to your knowledge of Portuguese Royal cyphers! Do you think that JR might not be Prince Regent Joao? or maybe JR is the British interpretation of what the cypher should be? The sword is not unique, I know of another exactly like it where the GR is still just visible under the new JR cypher. And of course, I am speculating that it was carried by a British officer in the army of Portugal, no-one can know for sure - but it is an officer's sword, not a trooper's sword which means it was not a government issued sword but bought by private purchase by an officer. The blade is by Runkel Sohlingen which puts the date of manufacture from 1796 to around 1800 (after 1800 the "h" was dropped from the spelling of Solingen on Runkel's blades). So it was certainly used by an officer in the British army before relocating to Portugal!

Fernando, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the hilt is not like "the current model"? Do you mean that its not like the disc hilt being discussed in this thread? If so, its because this hilt is the version for officers, sometimes called the "ladder hilt" or "first honeysuckle hilt".

Richard

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi again, Richard,


Nice sword you got there; with a hilt rather different from the current model, right?
Not trying to correct you, but the right cypher would be the monogram JPR for João Principe Regente.
He was indeed crowned in 1816, but as João VI, not IV. The new cypher would then be JVI ... no more R for regent.
But then if, as you say, your sword was used by a British officer, i don't see the logic in changing the British cypher into a Portuguese one. In such case the sword would have been 'donated' by the British, like thousands of them, and used by Portuguese ... or am i completely blocked
Fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Richard

Hi Fernando

Of course I bow to your knowledge of Portuguese Royal cyphers! Do you think that JR might not be Prince Regent Joao? or maybe JR is the British interpretation of what the cypher should be? The sword is not unique, I know of another exactly like it where the GR is still just visible under the new JR cypher. And of course, I am speculating that it was carried by a British officer in the army of Portugal, no-one can know for sure - but it is an officer's sword, not a trooper's sword which means it was not a government issued sword but bought by private purchase by an officer. The blade is by Runkel Sohlingen which puts the date of manufacture from 1796 to around 1800 (after 1800 the "h" was dropped from the spelling of Solingen on Runkel's blades). So it was certainly used by an officer in the British army before relocating to Portugal!

Fernando, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the hilt is not like "the current model"? Do you mean that its not like the disc hilt being discussed in this thread? If so, its because this hilt is the version for officers, sometimes called the "ladder hilt" or "first honeysuckle hilt".

Richard

Well, i am not such a specialist (at all), but the JPR monogram is what you massively see around, when it concerns this monarch's cypher, assuming that his contextual activity was more reflected while he was a prince, i would say.
On the other hand, the initials JR would fit to JOANNES REX, if such cypher was ever practiced, since he was later crowned as king; i am just excluding this for lack of instantly evidence, and not with final determination.
... besides, this would be a bit outdated, when it comes to weaponry potentially used during thr Peninsular war.
By the way, and still wandering about the cypher swap on the blade/s, did you know that George in portuguese is Jorge ?
Obviously this means no more than that.
Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Richard

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword. Some 2000 P1796 HC swords were sent to Sweden around 1807 and the Swedes adopted the exact pattern as their own M1808 cavalry pallasch* (although after Bernadotte become Crown Prince Charles John in 1810, they remodelled to a more French style of sword).

Ian - very nice grip restoration.

Jim - one of my 1796HC swords is by Thomas Craven who was in business from 1800-1801. Brian Robson was in error when he gave Craven's dates as 1818-20

Richard

* Source : Svenska Blankvapen by Olaf P Berg

Thanks Richard,
I am not 100% happy with it. When sizing and finishing the wooden part of the grip you have to make the grip slightly smaller to allow for the thickness of the leather covering. I actually made the grip a little too small and so there is a slight gap between the finished grip and the backpiece.
I might make another.
Ian

[katana]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Thanks Richard,
I am not 100% happy with it. When sizing and finishing the wooden part of the grip you have to make the grip slightly smaller to allow for the thickness of the leather covering. I actually made the grip a little too small and so there is a slight gap between the finished grip and the backpiece.
I might make another.
Ian

Hi Ian ,
could you 'double-up' on the leather covering (if glued to the existing layer)....or would you loose the detail of the grooves ?

Thanks for answering my question ....Is beech the original wood used ....or your own personal preference?

Regards David

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Ian ,
could you 'double-up' on the leather covering (if glued to the existing layer)....or would you loose the detail of the grooves ?

Thanks for answering my question ....Is beech the original wood used ....or your own personal preference?

Regards David

Hello David,
I did think about doubling up the leather but I do think it would spoil the grooves but I suppose if I am not happy with it I could give it a try.
I believe that the wood originally used would either be beech or obeche.

Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword. Some 2000 P1796 HC swords were sent to Sweden around 1807 and the Swedes adopted the exact pattern as their own M1808 cavalry pallasch* (although after Bernadotte become Crown Prince Charles John in 1810, they remodelled to a more French style of sword).

Ian - very nice grip restoration.

Jim - one of my 1796HC swords is by Thomas Craven who was in business from 1800-1801. Brian Robson was in error when he gave Craven's dates as 1818-20

Richard

* Source : Svenska Blankvapen by Olaf P Berg

Thank you so much Richard for the input on Craven. I remember all the years I researched that sword, the 1818 date seemed odd as this appeared a much earlier sword. The references I had were the old May & Annis based ones with the directory records.
Its great to have updated references, and I know you're always researching as evidenced by the detail in the outstanding articles you present!!!

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Richard,

Originally Posted by Richard

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword ...

The assumption that this sword's marks are either Spanish or Portuguese relies on the use of genre ... feminine, in the case. The 2ª for segunda and Cª for Companhia are undoubtedly the type of initials used on marks in the Peninsula,
Fernando