Balinese Hilt Help Requested

tom hyle · 21st May 2005, 10:12 AM

The pics are all there now; it's probably my computer; its protection may be set too high. That pompadour; if it's not the top of a monkey or ape what is it? Oceanic SE Asian humans do not traditionally wear such a hairstyle? Nor do bats? The detail in the pubic area looks to me like a non detailed depiction of nonaroused male genitalia; more or less triangular, more pointed and more attached at the top, perhaps pendulous underneath. I don't know that I would think of a loincloth as neccessarily meant to preserve modesty; IMHO that kind of taboo came FROM the wearing of garments; did not cause it; any man who has run thru brush nude can tell you the utility of a loincloth. Note as well that the bindings on legs and arms seem to be joined by the stripe going down the sides. This is not entirely outside of the realm of a tatoo "suit"? Note the marks on the belly; hair or tatoos? Note that the hands rest upon the "harness", perhaps as if steadying it.

VANDOO · 21st May 2005, 07:58 PM

I COULDN'T FIND A GOOD PICTURE OF THE FACE BUT I THINK THIS IS THE CREATURE FEATURED ON THE KERIS HANDLE.

Ian · 22nd May 2005, 02:39 AM

Vandoo:

I think you are correct -- the animal depicted in the hilt appears to be a form of fruit bat. Many years ago, when I lived in Sydney, Australia, we had a house opposite a small park that had several very old Morton Bay Fig trees. In the summer the fruit bats (a very large form of bat) would nest at night in the trees and eat the figs. Their chattering would keep us awake at night -- no air conditioning in our old Victorian house, so we slept with the windows open. The noise was bad enough, but the odor of these bats was overpowering if you ventured into the park.

"Tasty" is not a word I would associate with fruit bats!

Ian.

BluErf · 22nd May 2005, 02:55 AM

Yep, the hilt does look like bat. My initial thoughts were more based on the seemingly feathered wings and the legs. I don't think the legs are human at all. Human legs don't bend forward at the knee like a bat's, or eagle's, for that matter.

The other thing is, Garuda is sometimes not depicted with a bird's face, like these couple of images I found online of Garuda carvings in temples. There's also a Balinese hilt in the small red book "The invincible kris" which depicts garuda with a 'snout' rather than a full beak.

But, I also found a bat image which looks physiologically very similar to the hilt shown here, down to the 'knob'

The hairdo is funny, or could it be a crown? Or this hilt could be one of the fancier forms carved in Bali during its post WWII "Renaissance" where new forms of old icons emerge. I had Balinese hilt depiciting Garuda which looked like Heckle and Jeckle.

BluErf · 22nd May 2005, 03:03 AM

Here's the garuda hilt from the invincible kris.

Taking a closer look at the bat picture above, can't help but notice that even in the bat, the leg knee joints do bend in a similar fashion like human's, just that the leg has been 'rotated' 180 degrees to support the wing membrane. The knee joints bend in the opposite direction compared to birds.

But anyway, there's always a possibility that the artist had taken some artistic license on the physiological aspect of the animal form that he had intended to depict, and so strict comparisons with what we actually see in nature may not be a completely viable route to take to discern what this deity/animal form was supposed to be.

VANDOO · 22nd May 2005, 03:44 PM

IAN I TOO HAVE LISTENED TO BE BEAUTIFUL SINGING OF THE FLYING FOX AND THE LOVELY CROONING OF THE MUTTON BIRDS

SEARCH FOR FLYING FOX ON GOOGLE AND THEN SELECT FLYING FOXES IN AUSTRALIA THERE IS A SOUND BITE WHERE YOU CAN GO NOSTALGIC AND LISTEN TO THE FRUIT BATS, LOVELY FOR SLEEPING ENJOY

IN SOME SOCIETYS THE BATS ARE CONSIDERED A DELICY BUT LIKE THE DURIAN FRUIT THEY ARE QUITE PUNGENT. IT IS ALSO A GOOD PLACE TO LOOK FOR LARGE SNAKES AROUND THEIR SLEEPING CAMPS AS IT IS A SURE FOOD SOURCE, VERY STINKY THOUGH.

Ian · 22nd May 2005, 04:29 PM

Vandoo:

Thanks for that link. The sweet tones of the fruit bat are hard to forget!

They would definitely be an "acquired taste."

The variety that we saw mostly in Sydney was the black fruit bat. And they were big bats. Interesting to note the mystical properties attributed to eating bats, which are still considered a delicacy among indigenous populations.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IAN I TOO HAVE LISTENED TO BE BEAUTIFUL SINGING OF THE FLYING FOX AND THE LOVELY CROONING OF THE MUTTON BIRDS

SEARCH FOR FLYING FOX ON GOOGLE AND THEN SELECT FLYING FOXES IN AUSTRALIA THERE IS A SOUND BITE WHERE YOU CAN GO NOSTALGIC AND LISTEN TO THE FRUIT BATS, LOVELY FOR SLEEPING ENJOY

IN SOME SOCIETYS THE BATS ARE CONSIDERED A DELICY BUT LIKE THE DURIAN FRUIT THEY ARE QUITE PUNGENT. IT IS ALSO A GOOD PLACE TO LOOK FOR LARGE SNAKES AROUND THEIR SLEEPING CAMPS AS IT IS A SURE FOOD SOURCE, VERY STINKY THOUGH.

tom hyle · 22nd May 2005, 11:12 PM

Even a bird's leg bends like a human's; just in different proportions. Consider the familiar dead chicken. The hind leg has a thigh; cognate of our thigh, with a single long bone that swings off the side of the pelvis. Jointed to it is the "drumstick" which swings back, just as our lower leg does, and has a greater and lesser long bone, just as our lower leg does. The third long part of the leg, the one that bends forward and is usually cut off before cooking in N America, is as with many quadrupeds, an elongated foot. The carving shows this as well; the leg clearly is attached at the buttocks; it goes forward, passing thru a binding (?) of some kind, comes to a rounded point, presumeably a joint, but no details of the inside of the bend; then the leg bends back, passing thru the same binding; then it comes to a similar rounded point which IS an explicit joint, the binding not being in the way of this one, and the leg/foot bends forward to end in claws. It's this whole bound knee thing, and the harnessy look of the stripes on sides arms and legs that makes me think the figure is depicted as wearing a disquise or something.
The face looks a LOT like that bat photo, except the pompadour.

21st May 2005, 07:58 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE LARGE AND TASTY GREY HEADED FRUIT BAT I COULDN'T FIND A GOOD PICTURE OF THE FACE BUT I THINK THIS IS THE CREATURE FEATURED ON THE KERIS HANDLE. Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 02:55 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yep, the hilt does look like bat. My initial thoughts were more based on the seemingly feathered wings and the legs. I don't think the legs are human at all. Human legs don't bend forward at the knee like a bat's, or eagle's, for that matter. The other thing is, Garuda is sometimes not depicted with a bird's face, like these couple of images I found online of Garuda carvings in temples. There's also a Balinese hilt in the small red book "The invincible kris" which depicts garuda with a 'snout' rather than a full beak. But, I also found a bat image which looks physiologically very similar to the hilt shown here, down to the 'knob' The hairdo is funny, or could it be a crown? Or this hilt could be one of the fancier forms carved in Bali during its post WWII "Renaissance" where new forms of old icons emerge. I had Balinese hilt depiciting Garuda which looked like Heckle and Jeckle. Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 03:03 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Here's the garuda hilt from the invincible kris. Taking a closer look at the bat picture above, can't help but notice that even in the bat, the leg knee joints do bend in a similar fashion like human's, just that the leg has been 'rotated' 180 degrees to support the wing membrane. The knee joints bend in the opposite direction compared to birds. But anyway, there's always a possibility that the artist had taken some artistic license on the physiological aspect of the animal form that he had intended to depict, and so strict comparisons with what we actually see in nature may not be a completely viable route to take to discern what this deity/animal form was supposed to be. Attached Images

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21st May 2005, 10:12 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The pics are all there now; it's probably my computer; its protection may be set too high. That pompadour; if it's not the top of a monkey or ape what is it? Oceanic SE Asian humans do not traditionally wear such a hairstyle? Nor do bats? The detail in the pubic area looks to me like a non detailed depiction of nonaroused male genitalia; more or less triangular, more pointed and more attached at the top, perhaps pendulous underneath. I don't know that I would think of a loincloth as neccessarily meant to preserve modesty; IMHO that kind of taboo came FROM the wearing of garments; did not cause it; any man who has run thru brush nude can tell you the utility of a loincloth. Note as well that the bindings on legs and arms seem to be joined by the stripe going down the sides. This is not entirely outside of the realm of a tatoo "suit"? Note the marks on the belly; hair or tatoos? Note that the hands rest upon the "harness", perhaps as if steadying it.

22nd May 2005, 02:39 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Vandoo: I think you are correct -- the animal depicted in the hilt appears to be a form of fruit bat. Many years ago, when I lived in Sydney, Australia, we had a house opposite a small park that had several very old Morton Bay Fig trees. In the summer the fruit bats (a very large form of bat) would nest at night in the trees and eat the figs. Their chattering would keep us awake at night -- no air conditioning in our old Victorian house, so we slept with the windows open. The noise was bad enough, but the odor of these bats was overpowering if you ventured into the park. "Tasty" is not a word I would associate with fruit bats! Ian.

22nd May 2005, 03:44 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IAN I TOO HAVE LISTENED TO BE BEAUTIFUL SINGING OF THE FLYING FOX AND THE LOVELY CROONING OF THE MUTTON BIRDS SEARCH FOR FLYING FOX ON GOOGLE AND THEN SELECT FLYING FOXES IN AUSTRALIA THERE IS A SOUND BITE WHERE YOU CAN GO NOSTALGIC AND LISTEN TO THE FRUIT BATS, LOVELY FOR SLEEPING ENJOY IN SOME SOCIETYS THE BATS ARE CONSIDERED A DELICY BUT LIKE THE DURIAN FRUIT THEY ARE QUITE PUNGENT. IT IS ALSO A GOOD PLACE TO LOOK FOR LARGE SNAKES AROUND THEIR SLEEPING CAMPS AS IT IS A SURE FOOD SOURCE, VERY STINKY THOUGH.

22nd May 2005, 11:12 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Even a bird's leg bends like a human's; just in different proportions. Consider the familiar dead chicken. The hind leg has a thigh; cognate of our thigh, with a single long bone that swings off the side of the pelvis. Jointed to it is the "drumstick" which swings back, just as our lower leg does, and has a greater and lesser long bone, just as our lower leg does. The third long part of the leg, the one that bends forward and is usually cut off before cooking in N America, is as with many quadrupeds, an elongated foot. The carving shows this as well; the leg clearly is attached at the buttocks; it goes forward, passing thru a binding (?) of some kind, comes to a rounded point, presumeably a joint, but no details of the inside of the bend; then the leg bends back, passing thru the same binding; then it comes to a similar rounded point which IS an explicit joint, the binding not being in the way of this one, and the leg/foot bends forward to end in claws. It's this whole bound knee thing, and the harnessy look of the stripes on sides arms and legs that makes me think the figure is depicted as wearing a disquise or something. The face looks a LOT like that bat photo, except the pompadour.