Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

kulbuntet · 19th August 2009, 11:48 PM

Thank you Alan for this intresting story and explaination. But were to start. Im trying to do as best i can, with the limited means that i have.

May i ask you a question about the night you went to sleep and woke up.. diffrent... Did you have a dream that night? Ever had the thought that Pak Parman might have visit you in that night? pls let me explain my question. As you know i am a Keris enthousiast for now maybe 4/5 year. It just came, without anny good posible reason. Yes i had been studying Pencak Silat in the past, but that was when i was about 16 year old, im 32 now. So that would not be the reason, as far i feel. But on one day i just walked on the waterloo square here in amsterdam, (its known as a rubisch/antque/tourist market) with my mother. i was walking past a shop and drawn inwards to the shop without anny reason. There were 2 keris hanging on the wall behind some other thing. I had a look at them, and passed on.... but the upcoming hour the keris were stil in my head, so i went back to have an other look. Ending up by buying both of them, i went home. Placing one near my bed and the other one in the living room. I had a strange dream the first night i had the keris 2 feet next to my bed. There was a old man standing next to my bed, talking to me... he told me a big story... it felt like it was a half hour or somthing like it.. i did not understand the man, since i dont understand javanese or bahasa. but ending the story the man did a movement with his right hand to the right and in a sort of flash i was in a other part of the world in a difrent time, unluckly i cant remember all of the dream what i have seen.. but i can remember a old man with a mustage meditating every time i passed by and horses and cariots. Since that happend i got realy intressted by keris and indonesian culture and history.. and wanting to know what happend to me, and why? By the way i stil dont have found the answers. I have spoken about this happening with just some other people, few dutch some in indonesia. One of the dutch people is the one that learned me washing, he is a very intresting man, that lives by keris and indonesian culture. He told me that i did not pick the kerises.. they picked me. And there must be a reason for that.. he could not give me the reason.. but told me that the future wil suport it for me, and wil make things clear for me. Same as 2 people on Jawa told me, plus that it must have to do with former lives or family ties. A other friend of me that i have told has the opinion that i must cut loose to the live i have here, and move to java... since my hart and mind is there and not here.. In the time from than till now i have
experienced not to declare things. But since the man that learned me the basics that i know now.. cant do more for me than he already has.. i need to find a new good guide, to help me take the next step. But were to start it, and were to find a good one?

You writing the story you just did, made one thing clear for me.. I need to got to Java.... and see what wil come to me. First for a holliday... later for longer.. but on this moment im stil bound im my live here, since i have a son that i love and cant do without me... because he is 12 and not able to stand on his own feet in life alone for some more years...

Its difficult to understand for the ones never experienced things like this.. it did change me alot too. Im just trying to find out were it wil bring me, and why?

regards Mich

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2009, 12:21 AM

Thanks for your story Michel.

I know I began this line of discussion, but I do not want to take it any further.

What I have already put up for public perusal is much more than I perhaps should have.

If you wish to increase your understanding I would most sincerely recommend that you undertake a continuing study of Javanese history and culture. Additionally, you must learn the language. Without the ability to use Indonesian you will forever be severly handicapped. Without the ability to at least understand some Javanese, and most importantly, to understand the logic of the Javanese language, you cannot hope to be able to understand the Javanese world view. Ideally you would want to learn Javanese, but this might be too big a project.

This is the base you must come from if you wish to understand the blossoms of Javanese culture.

kulbuntet · 20th August 2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your story Michel.

I know I began this line of discussion, but I do not want to take it any further.

What I have already put up for public perusal is much more than I perhaps should have.

If you wish to increase your understanding I would most sincerely recommend that you undertake a continuing study of Javanese history and culture. Additionally, you must learn the language. Without the ability to use Indonesian you will forever be severly handicapped. Without the ability to at least understand some Javanese, and most importantly, to understand the logic of the Javanese language, you cannot hope to be able to understand the Javanese world view. Ideally you would want to learn Javanese, but this might be too big a project.

This is the base you must come from if you wish to understand the blossoms of Javanese culture.

Alan, I understand and share your wish to dont go in anny further on the first part. I do respect you wish, and iff i may be honoust... i never wnat to go into that in public too.. but for this time needed to do so.. I hope you understand.. if not, my apologies for doing so.

I understand that it is a must can do, to understand Javanese... My question.. wil Bahasado the job too? Since the Indonesian goverment forbids the public use of old languages? And do the younger Javanese people stil know the old Javanese? The understand of old Javanese is nesisary to study old manuscripts and other old publisched works, but are there no transations to bahasa? I did start to get aacquainted with bahasa.. but since i dont have a good teacher and not the time to self teach...it on low level now.

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2009, 02:40 AM

The Indonesian Govt. forbids public use of old languages?

News to me.

Where I spend most of my time in Indonesia is Solo. In Solo everybody uses Javanese all the time. Even when they use Indonesian it is very rarely Indonesian by the book but Indonesian mixed with Javanese. In Bali I hear people speraking Balinese between themselves. In East Jawa --- where my wife comes from --- everybody uses Javanese all the time.

In schools in Solo, Javanese in its local form ( Basa Daerah) is taught as a subject, along with the other usual subjects. Children need to learn the old outdated alphabet, hanacaraka.

Indonesian is the "public" language and is used for classroom instruction, most newspapers, and general communication. It is the most useful single language for a foreigner to learn. However many of the Indonesians I know are competent in several languages, for instance, my wife, who is Javanese/Chinese speaks East Javanese dialect, Central Javanese dialect, Indonesian, Indonesian/Javanese/Chinese dialect, some Mandarin, some Dutch, and of course, English. However, she is unable to use Madya and Krama, her Javanese is limited to Ngoko.On the other hand, I know people in Solo who cannot read nor write, but who can use perfect Javanese in all levels.

Formal hierarchically structured Javanese is gradually disappearing, but ordinary low level Javanese is the natural language of everybody who lives in Jawa.

Old Javanese is a different language to Modern Javanese, and the literary language of old Jawa, Kawi, is different again to Old Javanese. The relationship between Old Javanese and Modern Javanese is like the relationship between Old English and Modern English.

Some works in Old Javanese, Kawi, and Modern Javanese have been translated into Indonesian, and I think some might also be available in English.

I did not learn Indonesian nor Javanese in a classroom setting. I tried this when I began to learn, but was spectacularly unsuccessful. In fact, I have very little talent in languages, but I do have a good ear and can speak with a pretty fair accent. All my language skills have been gained by actual forced use of the languages.

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19th August 2009, 11:48 PM	#1
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Thank you Alan for this intresting story and explaination. But were to start. Im trying to do as best i can, with the limited means that i have. May i ask you a question about the night you went to sleep and woke up.. diffrent... Did you have a dream that night? Ever had the thought that Pak Parman might have visit you in that night? pls let me explain my question. As you know i am a Keris enthousiast for now maybe 4/5 year. It just came, without anny good posible reason. Yes i had been studying Pencak Silat in the past, but that was when i was about 16 year old, im 32 now. So that would not be the reason, as far i feel. But on one day i just walked on the waterloo square here in amsterdam, (its known as a rubisch/antque/tourist market) with my mother. i was walking past a shop and drawn inwards to the shop without anny reason. There were 2 keris hanging on the wall behind some other thing. I had a look at them, and passed on.... but the upcoming hour the keris were stil in my head, so i went back to have an other look. Ending up by buying both of them, i went home. Placing one near my bed and the other one in the living room. I had a strange dream the first night i had the keris 2 feet next to my bed. There was a old man standing next to my bed, talking to me... he told me a big story... it felt like it was a half hour or somthing like it.. i did not understand the man, since i dont understand javanese or bahasa. but ending the story the man did a movement with his right hand to the right and in a sort of flash i was in a other part of the world in a difrent time, unluckly i cant remember all of the dream what i have seen.. but i can remember a old man with a mustage meditating every time i passed by and horses and cariots. Since that happend i got realy intressted by keris and indonesian culture and history.. and wanting to know what happend to me, and why? By the way i stil dont have found the answers. I have spoken about this happening with just some other people, few dutch some in indonesia. One of the dutch people is the one that learned me washing, he is a very intresting man, that lives by keris and indonesian culture. He told me that i did not pick the kerises.. they picked me. And there must be a reason for that.. he could not give me the reason.. but told me that the future wil suport it for me, and wil make things clear for me. Same as 2 people on Jawa told me, plus that it must have to do with former lives or family ties. A other friend of me that i have told has the opinion that i must cut loose to the live i have here, and move to java... since my hart and mind is there and not here.. In the time from than till now i have experienced not to declare things. But since the man that learned me the basics that i know now.. cant do more for me than he already has.. i need to find a new good guide, to help me take the next step. But were to start it, and were to find a good one? You writing the story you just did, made one thing clear for me.. I need to got to Java.... and see what wil come to me. First for a holliday... later for longer.. but on this moment im stil bound im my live here, since i have a son that i love and cant do without me... because he is 12 and not able to stand on his own feet in life alone for some more years... Its difficult to understand for the ones never experienced things like this.. it did change me alot too. Im just trying to find out were it wil bring me, and why? regards Mich

20th August 2009, 12:21 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thanks for your story Michel. I know I began this line of discussion, but I do not want to take it any further. What I have already put up for public perusal is much more than I perhaps should have. If you wish to increase your understanding I would most sincerely recommend that you undertake a continuing study of Javanese history and culture. Additionally, you must learn the language. Without the ability to use Indonesian you will forever be severly handicapped. Without the ability to at least understand some Javanese, and most importantly, to understand the logic of the Javanese language, you cannot hope to be able to understand the Javanese world view. Ideally you would want to learn Javanese, but this might be too big a project. This is the base you must come from if you wish to understand the blossoms of Javanese culture.

20th August 2009, 02:40 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	The Indonesian Govt. forbids public use of old languages? News to me. Where I spend most of my time in Indonesia is Solo. In Solo everybody uses Javanese all the time. Even when they use Indonesian it is very rarely Indonesian by the book but Indonesian mixed with Javanese. In Bali I hear people speraking Balinese between themselves. In East Jawa --- where my wife comes from --- everybody uses Javanese all the time. In schools in Solo, Javanese in its local form ( Basa Daerah) is taught as a subject, along with the other usual subjects. Children need to learn the old outdated alphabet, hanacaraka. Indonesian is the "public" language and is used for classroom instruction, most newspapers, and general communication. It is the most useful single language for a foreigner to learn. However many of the Indonesians I know are competent in several languages, for instance, my wife, who is Javanese/Chinese speaks East Javanese dialect, Central Javanese dialect, Indonesian, Indonesian/Javanese/Chinese dialect, some Mandarin, some Dutch, and of course, English. However, she is unable to use Madya and Krama, her Javanese is limited to Ngoko.On the other hand, I know people in Solo who cannot read nor write, but who can use perfect Javanese in all levels. Formal hierarchically structured Javanese is gradually disappearing, but ordinary low level Javanese is the natural language of everybody who lives in Jawa. Old Javanese is a different language to Modern Javanese, and the literary language of old Jawa, Kawi, is different again to Old Javanese. The relationship between Old Javanese and Modern Javanese is like the relationship between Old English and Modern English. Some works in Old Javanese, Kawi, and Modern Javanese have been translated into Indonesian, and I think some might also be available in English. I did not learn Indonesian nor Javanese in a classroom setting. I tried this when I began to learn, but was spectacularly unsuccessful. In fact, I have very little talent in languages, but I do have a good ear and can speak with a pretty fair accent. All my language skills have been gained by actual forced use of the languages.