The future of blade technology

[Jim McDougall]

"...the secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery.
You must learn its riddle Conan, you must learn its discipline."
-"Conan the Barbarian"
Robert E. Howard

As I have noted many times, metallurgy is far beyond my understanding, but must admit Gene has come up with an intriguing topic, and Kisak has truly launched this thread with an wonderfully well written perspective.

While my focus has always been on the history of weapons, I must admit that in early times the mysteries of steel, especially of Damascus, certainly must have seemed like a contemporary form of science fiction or occult would perhaps be a better description.

We know that the nickel in meteorites was probably seen as almost magical in properties to be used in imbuing blades with powers that would excel.
I often wonder if perhaps, one day the minerals of other planets might reveal metals not known to us...maybe far in the future, but in the spirit of the topic, something that comes to mind.

I am not clear on exactly how long ago the secrets of Damascus steel were rediscovered by metallurgists in the west, or exactly how successful this was done, but it does illustrate how tenacious the search for ever improved metals has remained, and certainly will continue.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

I'd ask: better blade for what?

I think we're going to see some interesting new metal and metal glass pocket knives. We might see some sort of "magic machete" as Bruce Sterling suggest (basically, a super-sharp ceramic machete that was mass-produced).

Thing is, even a light saber or a variable knife aren't as fast as your basic 9 mm pistol, and they're nowhere near as destructive as an AK-47. I doubt we'll see swords come back into warfare anytime soon, except for a few, exotic applications.

On the other hand, there's a huge number of uses for tools and tool/weapons, and that's where I think we're going to see some neat developments.

As for materials, I'm waiting to see metal glasses go mainstream. These are basically super-sharp steel, version 17 (or whatever). Same story, different day. I'd also predict some interesting composites based on metallic recreations of shells and teeth-type biocomposites (basically, if you can make a hard tooth out of calcium carbonate by fiddling with the structure of the molecules, what could you do with steel?).

I'd also expect (perhaps!) the equivalent of a smart knife, not a weapon necessarily, but a mobile swiss army knife equivalent that could cut while you held, and could consult on how to solve a particular tool use problem. I can think of a number of situations where having the knife do the cutting would have been really useful.

I'd love to see a variable knife, but I think that goofy katana-ish thing that Sulu was using in the new Star Trek movie is vaguely more probable.

For collectors, what I think is interesting is how the idea of "genuine" has changed. Now days, "genuine" blades come with provenance, ID tags, numbered sets, and so forth--even websites, collector's clubs, and a materials list so that they can get past CITES inspectors. We still have ethnographic weapons, but rather than marking them with tribal designs and natural materials, we put all these data markers on them, and associate them with a cloud of data points talking about what they are and where they've been. If you step back and think about it from the perspective of history, that's about as bizarre a cultural development as some of those 10 weirdest blades we talked about.

My 0.000002 cents,

F

[Atlantia]

Hey Guys, great replys.

I do think this is an interesting subject.
As Fearn points out, the 'knife' in whatever form is not going to replace the 'gun' as we know it, and similarly, the technology we currently use in projectile weapons is unlikely to ever be replaced by 'star trek' style directed energy weapons for the simple reason that 'guns' are simply too cheap, reliable and effective.
We may see advances in bullets, propellants, a revisiting of the HK Caseless tech etc, but essentially guns work, and they work very well while being durable easy to use.

But thats not to say that a 'combat' blade has no place.

Sorry David,
I can't see light sabres ever being a reality
Well, beyond my master-replicas version!
Too much power needed, too many containment problems, too dangerous to the user etc.

But I can see us developing technology that blurs the lines between organic and inorganic. Blades 'grown' with a cutting edge a few molecules thick (or a single molecule) that would be able to split anything they are used against with ease, and if they are chipped or damaged, 'healing' in their scabbards while not in use.

[kisak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am not clear on exactly how long ago the secrets of Damascus steel were rediscovered by metallurgists in the west, or exactly how successful this was done,

A while back I had the chance to search for material on wootz in a rather large database of scientific papers. Amongst what little I found was one account of Indian steelmaking procedures, describing the crucible method, from 1829, and one chemical analysis of the composition of wootz from 1852. So while we might only have arrived at our current level of understanding quite recently (thanks to Verhoeven et.al), it seems a basic idea has been with us for quite some time.

On the composition of wootz, or Indian steel • SHORT COMMUNICATION
Journal of the Franklin Institute, Volume 54, Issue 3, September 1852, Pages 212-213
T. H. Henry

On the manufacture of iron and steel (Wootz) in India: from "A journey from Madras, through the countries of Mysore, Canara, and Malabar" • SHORT COMMUNICATION
Journal of the Franklin Institute, Volume 7, Issue 1, January 1829, Pages 7-16
Francis Buchanan

Originally Posted by fearn

I'm waiting to see metal glasses go mainstream. /.../ based on metallic recreations of shells and teeth-type biocomposites

Isn't there a problem with those where they tend to behave in a rather brittle fashion, despite being quite tough on paper? I seem to recall hearing that they had a nasty tendency of focusing all the stress in one point, leading to that point failing while the rest of the material was basically just sitting there and twiddling its thumbs.

As for those biocomposites, I'm not entirely familiar with them, but there's a vague memory in my head of them using extremely thin layers of the material to get the properties? In that case, it actually sounds pretty close to the bainitic steels, as those seem to obtain their properties from the aggregates of extremely thin crystal plates. (This would seem to be a very different concept from the type of folding traditionally done to steel in many parts of the world, with very different results.)


Regarding the monomolecular edges mentioned by a few people here, one thing to remember is that molecules vary greatly in size. Diamond crystals are actually single molecules, and can reach quite a few centimetres in size (metals on the other hand aren't molecular at all, but we can create single metal crystals of impressive size, often for turbine blades, the lack of grain size hardening effects might make such unsuitable for blades though).

I also wonder if there might not be a point where the exact width of the outermost edge doesn't really matter all that much any more, as the rest of the knife needs to be pushed into the material as well to the depth of the cut.

[fearn]

Originally Posted by kisak

Isn't there a problem with those where they tend to behave in a rather brittle fashion, despite being quite tough on paper? I seem to recall hearing that they had a nasty tendency of focusing all the stress in one point, leading to that point failing while the rest of the material was basically just sitting there and twiddling its thumbs.

As for those biocomposites, I'm not entirely familiar with them, but there's a vague memory in my head of them using extremely thin layers of the material to get the properties? In that case, it actually sounds pretty close to the bainitic steels, as those seem to obtain their properties from the aggregates of extremely thin crystal plates. (This would seem to be a very different concept from the type of folding traditionally done to steel in many parts of the world, with very different results.)
...
I also wonder if there might not be a point where the exact width of the outermost edge doesn't really matter all that much any more, as the rest of the knife needs to be pushed into the material as well to the depth of the cut.

Good points on the metal glasses. The answer is, I'm not sure where they are in development, and given the way stressed silicon glass works (as described), I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar problems with metal glass. I think some knife makers were experimenting with them, but they're out of my price range.

I absolutely agree about the problem of blade weight. I have a ceramic paring knife, and it sits there, mostly unused. It's ridiculously sharp, of course, but it's also about as light as a plastic knife, and the blade chips if it hits bone. The light weight means that it's actually more work to cut with it (no mass to work with) and the ceramic chips if it hits bone the wrong way. I do have a diamond hone that can resharpen it, but basically, it's less useful than the first-generation ginsu knife that I inherited from my grandmother, although it cost ~100x more.

The variable knife suffers from this problem. You have the edge, but you've got to lever the darn thing. Slice whips (the generic cyberpunk name for monomolecular wires with no support) have the same problem of no weight behind the edge, and you've got to be really, really careful that you don't garrote yourself when you're swinging one.

Anyway, I'll leave you with a retro-futuristic knife, made from modern materials in a paleolithic shape. That's right, it's a handaxe made from modern ceramics. Gotta love those designers (Link). Anybody want to try it?

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Kisak, thank you so much for the wonderful notes on Damascus, and for the references.....now there's something I can understand!

You guys are completely incredible here, I had no idea there was so much knowledge on all this metallurgy etc out there, let alone the astounding knowledge of physics and dynamics. I have never been able to comprehend science fiction, nor in general fiction, being too much a historian I guess. I have always admired those who could 'let go' and wander into worlds far beyond the limitations of our own known world.
Its truly enjoyable watching the discussion here, great fun guys!!!

It would seem our forum has reached dimensions far beyond the scope we imagined.

All very best regards,
Jim