Why Post?

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 07:14 PM

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

"Arms and Armour Study in Edwardian Britain"
Sid Blair and Michael Lacy, 1999

Excellent points Norman, and this is definitely a point of contention commonly faced here, as the weapons acquired and in private collections are typically the basis for our discussions. As I have noted, the gentlemanly demeanor here is certainly in most cases of highest caliber with regard to comments placed on another members weapons. In most cases where a piece is clearly a 'commercial' (trade or souk type souvenier) it is often hard to comment without the hard truth. In these instances I think the members here typically handle the matter deftly and with courtesy.
I think that we have all learned through the years through the academy of hard knocks, and most of it bear the scars of proof....in a sense I suppose we might consider this a kind of collectors 'patination' .
I believe strongly that the most important weapon an arms collector can possess is knowledge, and to never become complacent, never stop learning. This is the very reason why we are here, and why we all do what we do.

I was once told in my job, in which quick judgement calls were the 'order of the day', to make the call as best as you could with details at hand...if you were right ,it would strengthen your proficiency; if you were wrong, a lesson would be learned, and you would become even stronger. Naturally, in degree these 'calls' would vary with circumstances, but in most these ideas would apply.
A collector is by nature often impulsive, and sometimes an opportunity may be lost if action is not taken, but the more well versed they are in knowing the items they are considering, the less chance of the dreaded sting of error.

I would consider that those selling or trading arms that seek correct and accurate information to properly represent and describe those they intend to sell as prudent individuals. There is a profound difference in the laughable descriptions often with items for sale which are designed to deceive, and the typically more conservative captions which reflect true lack of knowledge.
I would only ask that those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward, and channel queries accordingly.

All best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 25th June 2009, 07:28 PM

Quote, " I would only ask those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward and channel queries accordingly." End Quote.

Hi Jim,
The straightforward solutions are often the best.
My Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 26th June 2009, 01:37 AM

I've got to say that I don't mind people wanting to correctly ID items in preparation for selling.

Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals!
I think thats an important part of collecting and we none of us keep everything we buy. I believe that there are many reasons why someone might only choose whether they sell or not after they get the correct information about an item.
If this is a 'community of collectors' then clearly members will see possible 'bargains' or ones that they know will appeal to others, and want to acquire them 'on spec' in order to trade with other members for items that suit them better or sell to them to fund more suitable purchases for their own collections.
Why deny your friends on here information simply because it might help them achieve a good price for their items?
IMHO that doesn't exactly fit with the 'spirit' of a collecting group.
While the selling area is available, then it should be fine to ask for a clear ID in preparation for listing items there or anywhere else.

And, I humbly submit that there should be no stipulation on why such information is requested, if for no better reason that the receipt of such information may alter the owners decision to keep or sell!

From my own experience I often ask for help to ID an item BEFORE I decide if I'm going to keep it!
Examples?
Ashanti gold dust pot

: Went straight on ebay!
Albacete Dagger

: Now a prized exhibit in my collection when I'd thought I might have made a mistake in buying it before my friends here ID'd it for me!

For my own part I look back at 30+ years of collecting and know that I have traded and sold more beautiful pieces than I care to remember

A wheel lock pistol that I'll never see the like of again, a wootz Tulwar before I knew what wootz even was

literally hundreds of items. Some I needed to sell for financial reasons some I traded to keep one collection or another alive.
One thing I do know is that I could easily (with my first child on its way) find myself needing to sell everything from my many collections again! BUT, I will not mourn because there are always more beautiful things to own, and as with any antiques, we don't own them forever, we hold them briefly for future generations.

Now I do realise that I might be losing friends here, I sincerely hope that will not include those above who'se opinions I seem to be at odds with, as I do regard you as friends and respect your opinions and knowledge greatly.

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 26th June 2009, 01:42 AM

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!

'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

kahnjar1 · 26th June 2009, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!

'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

I heartily agree Gene!

KuKulzA28 · 26th June 2009, 02:26 AM

Thank you guys, well said, I'll keep it in mind, though being a novice, I am a "little child at the adult table"... I try to be as helpful as possible, but I end up asking questions more than I answer... I think sometimes people with my level of knowledge see how much more knowledgeable others are and are reluctant to speak... as the Chinese say fay hwa show jiang (don't say the obvious things so much).

kahnjar1 · 26th June 2009, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Thank you guys, well said, I'll keep it in mind, though being a novice, I am a "little child at the adult table"... I try to be as helpful as possible, but I end up asking questions more than I answer... I think sometimes people with my level of knowledge see how much more knowledgeable others are and are reluctant to speak... as the Chinese say fay hwa show jiang (don't say the obvious things so much).

As I have said elsewhere in this thread, we are all learners, and always will be!
He who THINKS he is an expert, obviously knows everything, so should have no need for a Forum such as this!
If you have questions, keep asking as it is the way we all learn. Don't be reluctant to say even the obvious things. They might just be less obvious to others!

Regards Stu

t_c · 26th June 2009, 06:47 AM

Thanks for posting this Jim,
I really appreciate your encouragement. I have to admit I "lurked" here for a long time before I created an account; honestly because I wanted to buy something off the swap, but I've grown into it a little and tried to pitch in where I can, and ask questions when curious. I would encourage anyone else out there to do the same. I've made some comments here and there (hopefully without making too many eyes roll

) mainly regarding areas that I feel a little more comfortable in or at least think about more (been doing doing martial arts off and on for over a decade, so that's more my area of study). I have a good deal of reference books on arms (mostly Se Asian), but for me it's more about having the pictorial examples of traditional weaponry - I'm a visual and tactile sorta guy. I've always really appreciated the craft of metal working in regards to arms and armor, but an avid historian and researcher I am not. I use my books more for visual reference and don't recall a lot of the information even when I have made it through the book cover to cover. This forum is great for people like me with a little shorter attention span when it comes to history. I have always felt somewhat intimidated by the forum in general - there are a lot of forum members who do great research and have a lot of historical and general knowledge to share. I really respect your efforts in the scholarly realm and would hate to have you feel your efforts are unappreciated (especially by those who "lurk"), they are most certainly not, so thank you. In regards to friendly comments regarding someone's latest acquisition: I've always felt a little awkward just saying "nice find" etc. when I don't have any real insights on the item or questions to ask, but I really appreciate people sharing their acquisitions (and posts in general) with everyone - for me it's golden. I love seeing all the weapons of the world and the craftsmanship that goes into them and taking in the related discussion; so please, keep sharing and keep the dialog going, it's truly priceless (can you remember/imagine the world before the information age?

)

Thanks to all and cheers,
Tom

celtan · 27th June 2009, 03:50 AM

I do believe it was glorious Marlene who said

"If you don't have anything nice
to say about anyone,
please come and sit by my side..."

Just kiddin'..!

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!

'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2009, 07:22 PM

Celtan, thank you so very much. Those kind words mean more than you can imagine my friend, and the truth is that my manner is only reflective of the gentlemanly company here.
I very much appreciate your contributions, and your genuine comittment not only to learning, but to openly sharing your knowledge here. Very well placed comments, and you have my deepest respect.

Good one on the quote !!

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 28th June 2009, 11:33 AM

Great question Jim;

Well, to learn of course...that is why we are here aren't we, surely it is not just a picture gallery with no intellectual content.
Even the big dealers pop in here to brush up on info even if they do not share what they may or may not know.

I think Celtan said it best Jim ;-). You are the pillar of the community. You are here with more well versed and referenced content than all the community combined and your vigor for these subjects is an inspiration to all concerned.
No discredit to the others of course, I for one know how limited time is....and to quote Barry in some posting a while back..."if I were a rich man"........I know I'd be a lot more active too.

Gene, your comments are perfect :-), though for me, whilst the three word "very Nice ......." reply is all very nice, it would benefit the whole community if a lot more active and probing questions were asked, though some just prefer to sit on the fence and smile.
Kind of reminds me of the old adage, if your not living on the edge your just taking up space...live on the edge guys, throw your thoughts out there to see what bounces back, don't be afraid and there is no such thing as a silly question.

Stu, your comment, I quote, “Just remember that none of us are experts and we are all still learning." It is so very true.

I cannot understand why individuals would not want to comment on a piece or identify a piece based on who posts it, why the secrets. Really, who cares if it sold on next week, one should feel good about doing a little good in the world, it certainly isn't directly impacting anyone surely?? Good people please clarify for me what would be robbed lost or stolen from an individual when this happens?? I can't see the wood for the trees.
Lew made a good comment some time back with regards to asking about something that may be sold in the near future too, say something like I may be passing this on shortly, but I would like to know something about it. A nice phrase I think.

Rick I like the following comment you made; the bottom line here is that we help identify yet do not openly give appraisals.

Jim, you've done it again, everyone is off their seat for a round of applause and you certainly got the brain cells hopping, this time, not hopping about a weapon but hopping about what makes us tick.
Everyone has their own reasons and I have expressed mine and thank to all who have shared theirs too.

Lee thanks for doing what you have done with this site.

Jim, well thanks for being Jim ;-)

I love this place!

Gav

Rick · 26th June 2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals!

The bottom line here is that we help identify yet do not openly give appraisals .

I would suggest that a reasonable time pass before a forum identified piece would be listed in Swap .

It just seems more right .

Not policy; just my opinion .

28th June 2009, 11:33 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Why Post.. Great question Jim; Well, to learn of course...that is why we are here aren't we, surely it is not just a picture gallery with no intellectual content. Even the big dealers pop in here to brush up on info even if they do not share what they may or may not know. I think Celtan said it best Jim ;-). You are the pillar of the community. You are here with more well versed and referenced content than all the community combined and your vigor for these subjects is an inspiration to all concerned. No discredit to the others of course, I for one know how limited time is....and to quote Barry in some posting a while back..."if I were a rich man"........I know I'd be a lot more active too. Gene, your comments are perfect :-), though for me, whilst the three word "very Nice ......." reply is all very nice, it would benefit the whole community if a lot more active and probing questions were asked, though some just prefer to sit on the fence and smile. Kind of reminds me of the old adage, if your not living on the edge your just taking up space...live on the edge guys, throw your thoughts out there to see what bounces back, don't be afraid and there is no such thing as a silly question. Stu, your comment, I quote, “Just remember that none of us are experts and we are all still learning." It is so very true. I cannot understand why individuals would not want to comment on a piece or identify a piece based on who posts it, why the secrets. Really, who cares if it sold on next week, one should feel good about doing a little good in the world, it certainly isn't directly impacting anyone surely?? Good people please clarify for me what would be robbed lost or stolen from an individual when this happens?? I can't see the wood for the trees. Lew made a good comment some time back with regards to asking about something that may be sold in the near future too, say something like I may be passing this on shortly, but I would like to know something about it. A nice phrase I think. Rick I like the following comment you made; the bottom line here is that we help identify yet do not openly give appraisals. Jim, you've done it again, everyone is off their seat for a round of applause and you certainly got the brain cells hopping, this time, not hopping about a weapon but hopping about what makes us tick. Everyone has their own reasons and I have expressed mine and thank to all who have shared theirs too. Lee thanks for doing what you have done with this site. Jim, well thanks for being Jim ;-) I love this place! Gav

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25th June 2009, 07:14 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking, British arms historian and collector), that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object". "Arms and Armour Study in Edwardian Britain" Sid Blair and Michael Lacy, 1999 Excellent points Norman, and this is definitely a point of contention commonly faced here, as the weapons acquired and in private collections are typically the basis for our discussions. As I have noted, the gentlemanly demeanor here is certainly in most cases of highest caliber with regard to comments placed on another members weapons. In most cases where a piece is clearly a 'commercial' (trade or souk type souvenier) it is often hard to comment without the hard truth. In these instances I think the members here typically handle the matter deftly and with courtesy. I think that we have all learned through the years through the academy of hard knocks, and most of it bear the scars of proof....in a sense I suppose we might consider this a kind of collectors 'patination' . I believe strongly that the most important weapon an arms collector can possess is knowledge, and to never become complacent, never stop learning. This is the very reason why we are here, and why we all do what we do. I was once told in my job, in which quick judgement calls were the 'order of the day', to make the call as best as you could with details at hand...if you were right ,it would strengthen your proficiency; if you were wrong, a lesson would be learned, and you would become even stronger. Naturally, in degree these 'calls' would vary with circumstances, but in most these ideas would apply. A collector is by nature often impulsive, and sometimes an opportunity may be lost if action is not taken, but the more well versed they are in knowing the items they are considering, the less chance of the dreaded sting of error. I would consider that those selling or trading arms that seek correct and accurate information to properly represent and describe those they intend to sell as prudent individuals. There is a profound difference in the laughable descriptions often with items for sale which are designed to deceive, and the typically more conservative captions which reflect true lack of knowledge. I would only ask that those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward, and channel queries accordingly. All best regards, Jim

25th June 2009, 07:28 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,644	Quote, " I would only ask those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward and channel queries accordingly." End Quote. Hi Jim, The straightforward solutions are often the best. My Regards, Norman.

26th June 2009, 01:37 AM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I've got to say that I don't mind people wanting to correctly ID items in preparation for selling. Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals! I think thats an important part of collecting and we none of us keep everything we buy. I believe that there are many reasons why someone might only choose whether they sell or not after they get the correct information about an item. If this is a 'community of collectors' then clearly members will see possible 'bargains' or ones that they know will appeal to others, and want to acquire them 'on spec' in order to trade with other members for items that suit them better or sell to them to fund more suitable purchases for their own collections. Why deny your friends on here information simply because it might help them achieve a good price for their items? IMHO that doesn't exactly fit with the 'spirit' of a collecting group. While the selling area is available, then it should be fine to ask for a clear ID in preparation for listing items there or anywhere else. And, I humbly submit that there should be no stipulation on why such information is requested, if for no better reason that the receipt of such information may alter the owners decision to keep or sell! From my own experience I often ask for help to ID an item BEFORE I decide if I'm going to keep it! Examples? Ashanti gold dust pot : Went straight on ebay! Albacete Dagger : Now a prized exhibit in my collection when I'd thought I might have made a mistake in buying it before my friends here ID'd it for me! For my own part I look back at 30+ years of collecting and know that I have traded and sold more beautiful pieces than I care to remember A wheel lock pistol that I'll never see the like of again, a wootz Tulwar before I knew what wootz even was literally hundreds of items. Some I needed to sell for financial reasons some I traded to keep one collection or another alive. One thing I do know is that I could easily (with my first child on its way) find myself needing to sell everything from my many collections again! BUT, I will not mourn because there are always more beautiful things to own, and as with any antiques, we don't own them forever, we hold them briefly for future generations. Now I do realise that I might be losing friends here, I sincerely hope that will not include those above who'se opinions I seem to be at odds with, as I do regard you as friends and respect your opinions and knowledge greatly. Regards Gene

26th June 2009, 01:42 AM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking, British arms historian and collector), that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object". May I just add... Could any quote be more apt? That should be the mantra of everyone using this site! 'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

26th June 2009, 02:26 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thank you guys, well said, I'll keep it in mind, though being a novice, I am a "little child at the adult table"... I try to be as helpful as possible, but I end up asking questions more than I answer... I think sometimes people with my level of knowledge see how much more knowledgeable others are and are reluctant to speak... as the Chinese say fay hwa show jiang (don't say the obvious things so much).

26th June 2009, 06:47 AM	#8
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Thanks for posting this Jim, I really appreciate your encouragement. I have to admit I "lurked" here for a long time before I created an account; honestly because I wanted to buy something off the swap, but I've grown into it a little and tried to pitch in where I can, and ask questions when curious. I would encourage anyone else out there to do the same. I've made some comments here and there (hopefully without making too many eyes roll ) mainly regarding areas that I feel a little more comfortable in or at least think about more (been doing doing martial arts off and on for over a decade, so that's more my area of study). I have a good deal of reference books on arms (mostly Se Asian), but for me it's more about having the pictorial examples of traditional weaponry - I'm a visual and tactile sorta guy. I've always really appreciated the craft of metal working in regards to arms and armor, but an avid historian and researcher I am not. I use my books more for visual reference and don't recall a lot of the information even when I have made it through the book cover to cover. This forum is great for people like me with a little shorter attention span when it comes to history. I have always felt somewhat intimidated by the forum in general - there are a lot of forum members who do great research and have a lot of historical and general knowledge to share. I really respect your efforts in the scholarly realm and would hate to have you feel your efforts are unappreciated (especially by those who "lurk"), they are most certainly not, so thank you. In regards to friendly comments regarding someone's latest acquisition: I've always felt a little awkward just saying "nice find" etc. when I don't have any real insights on the item or questions to ask, but I really appreciate people sharing their acquisitions (and posts in general) with everyone - for me it's golden. I love seeing all the weapons of the world and the craftsmanship that goes into them and taking in the related discussion; so please, keep sharing and keep the dialog going, it's truly priceless (can you remember/imagine the world before the information age? ) Thanks to all and cheers, Tom

27th June 2009, 07:22 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Celtan, thank you so very much. Those kind words mean more than you can imagine my friend, and the truth is that my manner is only reflective of the gentlemanly company here. I very much appreciate your contributions, and your genuine comittment not only to learning, but to openly sharing your knowledge here. Very well placed comments, and you have my deepest respect. Good one on the quote !! All the best, Jim