Mystery Jewish Sword From Atlas Mountains???

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2004, 10:55 AM

Jim,The British Museum publication,Afican Arms and Armour by C.Spring ,ISBN 0-7141-2508-3, pages 22-23 does not mention specific materials but does mention {versions} of a sabre-like weapon with birds head pommel.It also speculates an Asian origin rather than Mediterranean for development of the Kopis.Tim

VVV · 12th December 2004, 10:54 PM

Thank you all for helping me learn more about this sword!!!

Mike

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2004, 04:27 AM

Tim, Thank you very much for the direct response and for the pages for the reference in Spring's outstanding book. It must be remembered that the term 'birds head' is quite vague in description as in many cases we may be referring to a defined likeness or widely varied degree of stylization. The picture of the kopis posted by Yannis illustrates a stylized birdhead with hooked beak which forms the nock for the base of the hand. The trilobate pommel of the karabela is considered a birdhead form, as are the pommels of the so called Berber sabres and the Algerian flyssa (both highly stylized to where there is considerable dispute over what creature may be represented).

The note in Spring that suggests an Asian rather than Mediterranean origin for the kopis presents an interesting suggestion for further research on the development of these fascinating weapons.

Rivkin, interesting note on the allowing of certain of the Jewish population carrying weapons within the Muslim sphere in Morocco. This very topic has raised some opposition in discussions, and it is unclear whether they actually were permitted to carry the weapons as personal arms or whether they simply crafted, mounted and traded in them. Can you cite any references that might specify?

Best regards,
Jim

Rivkin · 13th December 2004, 06:42 PM

Unfortunately I've got this information from a personal discussion rather than from a book. A guy Iused to know was visiting Israel about 50 years ago when he encountered a group of people wearing daggers. He asked them where they are from and they replied that they are migrants from Morocco.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

12th December 2004, 10:55 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Jim,The British Museum publication,Afican Arms and Armour by C.Spring ,ISBN 0-7141-2508-3, pages 22-23 does not mention specific materials but does mention {versions} of a sabre-like weapon with birds head pommel.It also speculates an Asian origin rather than Mediterranean for development of the Kopis.Tim

12th December 2004, 10:54 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thank you all for helping me learn more about this sword!!! Mike

13th December 2004, 04:27 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Tim, Thank you very much for the direct response and for the pages for the reference in Spring's outstanding book. It must be remembered that the term 'birds head' is quite vague in description as in many cases we may be referring to a defined likeness or widely varied degree of stylization. The picture of the kopis posted by Yannis illustrates a stylized birdhead with hooked beak which forms the nock for the base of the hand. The trilobate pommel of the karabela is considered a birdhead form, as are the pommels of the so called Berber sabres and the Algerian flyssa (both highly stylized to where there is considerable dispute over what creature may be represented). The note in Spring that suggests an Asian rather than Mediterranean origin for the kopis presents an interesting suggestion for further research on the development of these fascinating weapons. Rivkin, interesting note on the allowing of certain of the Jewish population carrying weapons within the Muslim sphere in Morocco. This very topic has raised some opposition in discussions, and it is unclear whether they actually were permitted to carry the weapons as personal arms or whether they simply crafted, mounted and traded in them. Can you cite any references that might specify? Best regards, Jim

13th December 2004, 06:42 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Unfortunately I've got this information from a personal discussion rather than from a book. A guy Iused to know was visiting Israel about 50 years ago when he encountered a group of people wearing daggers. He asked them where they are from and they replied that they are migrants from Morocco.