Non European forces proving themselves Vs European military might

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Jim, my i dare making some coments?


As already mentioned, rapiers used in -India were not those with a sissy blade. Forget the term rapier; estoc is not a bad name for the thing ... thrusting was the business.



It appears that, in a general manner, at the first stage you had fighting starting from aboard ships where, apart from artillery (let to another issue), men used mainly crossbows, whereas locals used the bow and arrow. Amazingly the bow and arrow was never carried by Portuguese, to some extent a circumstancial handicap, whereas such thing in locals hands was the most responsible weapon for wounds inflicted to Portuguese during conflicts in India. Once landing, ranks used lances and their variants (pikes and so), while officers (nobles) used in the first impact the two handed sword and one or two used the halberd; the side sword later acting as close quarters resource.



More than one race was involved in battles in India, not just locals; plenty of Turcs, as also many other... and some sure knew how to handle weapons.
Also the Naires from Malabar were no sweet pear; Pyrard de Laval considered them the best in the world.



Yes, they seemed to have used such trick; but then again, the efectiveness of such 'hipnosis' depended on who you were facing each time.

Fernando

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Nicely noted Fernando!
As you say, the rapiers did not have the narrow blades that became popular with civilian fencing in later years, though the often intricate hilt guards were becoming very developed. Thrusting was indeed the 'business', quite contrary to the slashing and draw cuts of oriental swordsmanship. The estoc was of course used primarily as a heavy thrusting sword in European warfare where heavy armour was used. Its premise became profoundly employed in the heavily reinforced armour piercing blades of many edged weapons in Persia, Central Asia and India.

The deadly bow and arrow certainly had become the primary weapon of many of the nomadic Turkic tribes of the steppes and influenced the warfare of India as certain of these tribes entered the subcontinent. The use of this weapon was certainly not confined to native warriors as obviously its use in medieval European warfare is well established.

The embarkation of the Portuguese into these deadly weapons would likely best compare to the landing of forces onto beachheads in Normandy into emplaced machine gun batteries. Once ashore the European use of thier conventional weapons against the Indian forces, and how this interaction would compare, is pretty much the goal here.
In most cases, contemporary narratives may describe the overall outcome of the event, but aside from descriptions with attention to individuals or action seldom address details on the weapons. What we look for is of course, the instances where the weapons are specifically noted, such as the accounts of the British against the Sikhs in the 19th century.

India has always been known as one of the most diverse continents in cultures, language, ethnicity and so on, and as noted, there were indeed many groups incorporated in the ranks of the forces there. Naturally these would vary widely depending on time, place and so on, and it takes very deep study of Indian history to truly understand these assimilations and alliances.

Moving forward again to 18th-19th century

Getting back to Genes topic, in trying to compare the effectiveness of European weaponry against native, and in doing so trying to remain in kind, in many cases it is difficult to do. The concept is well placed as it is interesting to consider how weapons from industrialized cultures stood against those of 'native' cultures.
It is well known that the beauty and excellence of wootz in the swords of the Middle East was highly desirable, and was never truly duplicated in the west. But it is my understanding that these blades were not particularly suitable for sword to sword combat, or against armor obviously. They were used along with a shield to parry, and not meant to use in the sense of European sword combat. With the Mahrattas, the thrust was unheard of, and slashing was the style dictated in thier combat.
While the katar was often perceived as a thrusting weapon, in thier use it was for slashing cuts. In Mughal India, it did become a thrust weapon or 'punch dagger'.


All best regards,
Jim