spanish colonial lances

[aiontay]

I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry.

As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by aiontay

I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry.

As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.

Hello Aiontay, and welcome!!! It is great to see this thread brought up again and especially to see your entry concerning the Kiowa raiding partys into Mexico. I would very much like to hear more, as I am under the impression that you are of Kiowa ancestry, and I find that most fascinating. I have always deeply admired the Native American history, traditions and heritage, and in travelling cross country have been fortunate to visit many important locations. It is most heartening to see the traditions and heritage of these many nations being preserved and with well earned pride.

Thank you for confirming the distances of these raids with such well qualified information....I really love the story of 'furry little men with tails'!! that truly must have been enough to say..I think we may have gone too far!!

All the very best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

It makes sense, Aiontay. Welcome to the forum. I hope you can enrich this multicultural cauldron.
Regards

Gonzalo

[aiontay]

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves.

I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks.

As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant.

I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves.

I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks.

As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant.

I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.

Absolutely fantastic input Aiontay! Thank you for the notes on the lances and tomahawks, and other comments which are excellent in helping us learn more on the American Indian weapons. The note on the shield with the elephant is pretty stunning ! I think it would really be interesting to review some of these surprisingly incongruent elements found on weaponry such as this, and to discuss how these might have arrived in completely unexpected cultures.
Personally I believe that the complexity of trade networking far exceeded commonly held modern comprehension and it seems research and archaeological discoveries continue to reveal evidence suggesting these astounding connections.
In many cases, material culture that may have changed hands at any number of points from its origin to its final location, would be not unsurprisingly nor unexpectedly strange to be found there.

I think Gonzalos earlier note on the presence of monkeys and parrots being found farther north in Mexico is well placed also, as geographic boundaries have little to do with nature, but it is entirely fascinating that the various raiding parties moved so deeply south regardless of what exact region they reached.

I really look forward to your posting on the items on earlier threads, and I'd like very much to hear more on Native American weapons, which is a topic we need to have more coverage on.

Thanks again, and its good to have you posting with us!

All the best,
Jim

[aiontay]

Jim, the page is acting up so I wasn't able to find the exact shield, but I believe it is someplace among the images here: http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/mooney.htm.

[aiontay]

Here is the image of the shield: http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/kiowa/08935820.jpg.

The larger collection, which includes a number of depictions of weapons is:
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/kiowa.htm

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Here is the image of the shield: http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/kiowa/08935820.jpg.

The larger collection, which includes a number of depictions of weapons is:
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/kiowa.htm

That is outstanding, and yup, its an elephant OK!!!
Would you please send me a PM, yours is not receiving.

All the best,
Jim