Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

[fearn]

Hi David,

Yes, I enjoy a good argument too. Thanks for pointing out the flowers and foliage on the guard. I'd missed that. Those rosettes are eight-petaled, and that's a really unusual number for real flowers (read, it happens very rarely, and these are NOT representatives of a real species). Because of that, I agree that those little rosettes are probably symbols.

Another thing is to remember is that northern Europeans didn't get to see palm trees unless they traveled, so on Palm Sunday, they often used conifer branches in place of palm branches. Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some confusion between pines and palms. Also, we have the Cedar of Lebanon, another Mid-eastern species (the wood was used to build the Ark of the Covenant), and we could be seeing representations of cedar as well as pine. One thing I've noticed is that many mystical and religious types tend not to be up on their botany (ditto with swordsmiths), and so we can't count on plants being identified and portrayed properly in their art.

As for the handling characteristics, I agree that it would be nice to handle it, and until then, we can argue about its characteristics. One thing to remember, though, is that this blade is going to be heavier than a straight blade of the same point-hilt length, because those undulations add some extra mass. If it faced a straight blade of the same length, all other things being equal, it would be a little slower.

One thing that I brought up before, that got ignored, was how odd the guard is. It's symmetrical (compare with Bilbao rapier under discussion). Since this is almost certainly a commissioned piece, I would expect to see a guard that is right-handed or left-handed, to suit the user. Moreover, the wear on the grip (see Katana's previous post) looks right-handed to me, as it's right where a right index finger would rub.

There are a couple of reasons why the guard could be symmetrical. One is that the symmetry is important to its symbolic value. That's possible. Another is that it was built to be used by more than one person, as in an armoury sword (see the post by Paul MacDonald talking about baskethilts). However, I don't think this is an armoury sword.

However, it could have belonged to a lodge or similar institution, as a ritual sword. That could explain the symmetric guard.

On with the debate!

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

David, thank you very much for the kind words, and for the followup with more great detail......excellent information on the ancient symbolism, as well as the rosettes, which I seem to have missed entirely !
Fearn, thank you also for your additions of yet more detail, and well placed comments concerning the botanical errata that seems to be quite notable in representations in weapon motif. Good points on the symmetry here as well, and another thing I overlooked, partly because I was focused on the symbolism of this sword and had leaned away from it being intended for actual combat.
The interaction between you and David has been outstanding, and it is great to see opposing ideas presented with supported perspective and sound reasoning, and completely constructive in evaluating various aspects being considered here. Without the comments and observations all of you guys bring up, the discussion would veer way off course, so its all a team effort!!

It truly is a great debate, and I always look forward to discovering more!

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Finally, I have one image of the referenced spanish flammard rapier-like swords. It has a straight blade with curved edges, and it was meant as a combat weapon. Please see this example:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7262

I just culdn´t find it before, as it was saved on my PC without reference to the form of the blade, and the name-tag on the catalog also does not specify this point.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Finally, I have one image of the referenced spanish flammard rapier-like swords. It has a straight blade with curved edges, and it was meant as a combat weapon. Please see this example:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7262

I just culdn´t find it before, as it was saved on my PC without reference to the form of the blade, and the name-tag on the catalog also does not specify this point.
Regards

Gonzalo

Thank you Gonzalo for keeping after that!! Excellent example of wavy edges, rather than wavy blade...and as you have previously noted, the simple omission describing these in discussion or narration can really lead to difficulties in considering dynamics.
All the best,
Jim