Leather Sheath Sword

Freddy · 10th April 2005, 06:38 PM

Tom, I can assure you...it's copper wire. Very thin copper wire. I tried to take some pics, but my digital camera has its limits.

In the middle of the sheath, there's a band of about 1 cm where the copper wire has been twisted. This adds a small decorative element to this sheath.

The edge of the blade is sharp on both sides, from point to handle. I could be used for slashing, but due to the thickness of the blade it's also ideal for stabbing.

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 09:33 PM

Thanks. Love the tonfa-like sheath. When the wood was new it might've been a real decent one-use emergency sheild?

Flavio · 10th April 2005, 10:50 PM

Hello. I have a very similar short sword like the one of Freddy and i'm totally agree with him

. there is also the band of about 1 cm where the copper wire has been twisted.

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 11:13 PM

rectangular raised medial? Nice.

Freddy · 11th April 2005, 10:21 AM

Flavio, what's the size of your sword ?

Here's another Tutsi dagger. Much smaller than the first one, with a total length of 26,5 cm. The blade is shaped like a spear point and measures 15,5 cm.

I don't know if you can see it on the pic, but the medial has the same shape as Flavio's knife.

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 05:29 PM

When you say it, I can see it; thanks. Note the talibon-like bindning block.

Flavio · 11th April 2005, 07:04 PM

Hello Freddy. The measures are quite the same of your sword: the length of the blade + the handle is 42.5 cm, the maximum width of the blade 2 cm. The scabbard is in length 38 cm.

Conogre · 11th April 2005, 08:16 PM

My own personal feeling is that westerners see similarities and assume, leading to all sorts of problems when you're dealing with an entirely different mind set, where religious/spiritual beliefs are often more important than form, even if it makes the weapon less effective.
The flat bladed seme knives were not originally the result of being shaved down machetes, but rather came about with the ready avilability of automobile/truck leaf springs and other weapons of war left over from the Europeans, the advent of firearms, and finally the opening of the region to tourism and the demand for souveniers.
It was simply faster, less work and just as effective, thus has even spread over into the use of real user knives in many areas.
The longer swords were used in inter-tribal warfare as well, which has likewise diminisheshed, making a tool shaped usage more necessary than a weapon based shape, particularly when you consider that in today's society ANY game animal has been substitued for a lion as well.
As to throwing the "lion" spears or moran, there's a major flaw with that as well....the manhood initiation rites often necessitated ONE youth only on the hunt, and while throwing that spear might seem the most sensible method to us, consider the consequences when you are alone......once it's left your hand, it's gone.
You're now going to kill the lion with what?
An evil stare?
They goaded the lion into attacking and, hopefully, impaling itself on the moran (I've seen this term used interchangably with the spear and the warrior), the seme then came into play to deliver the coup de grace' while the animal thrashed around largely incapacitated with the whole blade in its torso, much like the Roman pilums rendered enemy shields ineffective once stuck in them .
The Masai also, by the way, use a second, lighter type of spear with a small, leaf shaped head and a long iron neck, suited much more to throwing even though it has the same counter-balance on the butt.
In my opinion, the shape of the Ilwoon has nothing to do with the Seme other than coincedental appearance, as it is much more like other traditional swords from the Congo in flat blade and wide hilt than it is like the Seme of the Masai and plains.
Some Kuba swords, for example, have the blade extending out into sharp, sideways projecting spikes at the end of the blade as well as being found in many other variations.
Here are some photos of an older Shi sword, sans hilt and with an unwrapped scabbard, instead using the commonly seen fibre bindings (Artzi has a similar sword in his gallery with an Ivory hilt, a truly exceptional weapon).
In my opinion, this is more of a "smash and stab" sword than a cut and thrust as the central rib is so pronounced and at such a steep angle as to be ineffective for truly deep cuts because of its extreme thickness.
These swords are also unique in the manner in which they are carried, with a wide cloth strip going across the forehead and the weapon itself hanging down the middle of the back(Artzi was kind enough to forward me old photos of them being carried traditionally, which I seem to have misplaced or lost in a PC crash, sorry)
This blade, by the way, is 23 1/2" to the beginning of the tang.
Mike

10th April 2005, 10:50 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello. I have a very similar short sword like the one of Freddy and i'm totally agree with him . there is also the band of about 1 cm where the copper wire has been twisted. Attached Images

11th April 2005, 08:16 PM	#8
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	My own personal feeling is that westerners see similarities and assume, leading to all sorts of problems when you're dealing with an entirely different mind set, where religious/spiritual beliefs are often more important than form, even if it makes the weapon less effective. The flat bladed seme knives were not originally the result of being shaved down machetes, but rather came about with the ready avilability of automobile/truck leaf springs and other weapons of war left over from the Europeans, the advent of firearms, and finally the opening of the region to tourism and the demand for souveniers. It was simply faster, less work and just as effective, thus has even spread over into the use of real user knives in many areas. The longer swords were used in inter-tribal warfare as well, which has likewise diminisheshed, making a tool shaped usage more necessary than a weapon based shape, particularly when you consider that in today's society ANY game animal has been substitued for a lion as well. As to throwing the "lion" spears or moran, there's a major flaw with that as well....the manhood initiation rites often necessitated ONE youth only on the hunt, and while throwing that spear might seem the most sensible method to us, consider the consequences when you are alone......once it's left your hand, it's gone. You're now going to kill the lion with what? An evil stare? They goaded the lion into attacking and, hopefully, impaling itself on the moran (I've seen this term used interchangably with the spear and the warrior), the seme then came into play to deliver the coup de grace' while the animal thrashed around largely incapacitated with the whole blade in its torso, much like the Roman pilums rendered enemy shields ineffective once stuck in them . The Masai also, by the way, use a second, lighter type of spear with a small, leaf shaped head and a long iron neck, suited much more to throwing even though it has the same counter-balance on the butt. In my opinion, the shape of the Ilwoon has nothing to do with the Seme other than coincedental appearance, as it is much more like other traditional swords from the Congo in flat blade and wide hilt than it is like the Seme of the Masai and plains. Some Kuba swords, for example, have the blade extending out into sharp, sideways projecting spikes at the end of the blade as well as being found in many other variations. Here are some photos of an older Shi sword, sans hilt and with an unwrapped scabbard, instead using the commonly seen fibre bindings (Artzi has a similar sword in his gallery with an Ivory hilt, a truly exceptional weapon). In my opinion, this is more of a "smash and stab" sword than a cut and thrust as the central rib is so pronounced and at such a steep angle as to be ineffective for truly deep cuts because of its extreme thickness. These swords are also unique in the manner in which they are carried, with a wide cloth strip going across the forehead and the weapon itself hanging down the middle of the back(Artzi was kind enough to forward me old photos of them being carried traditionally, which I seem to have misplaced or lost in a PC crash, sorry) This blade, by the way, is 23 1/2" to the beginning of the tang. Mike Attached Images Last edited by Conogre; 11th April 2005 at 08:29 PM.

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10th April 2005, 06:38 PM	#1
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Tom, I can assure you...it's copper wire. Very thin copper wire. I tried to take some pics, but my digital camera has its limits. In the middle of the sheath, there's a band of about 1 cm where the copper wire has been twisted. This adds a small decorative element to this sheath. The edge of the blade is sharp on both sides, from point to handle. I could be used for slashing, but due to the thickness of the blade it's also ideal for stabbing.

10th April 2005, 09:33 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks. Love the tonfa-like sheath. When the wood was new it might've been a real decent one-use emergency sheild?

10th April 2005, 11:13 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	rectangular raised medial? Nice.

11th April 2005, 10:21 AM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Flavio, what's the size of your sword ? Here's another Tutsi dagger. Much smaller than the first one, with a total length of 26,5 cm. The blade is shaped like a spear point and measures 15,5 cm. I don't know if you can see it on the pic, but the medial has the same shape as Flavio's knife.

11th April 2005, 05:29 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	When you say it, I can see it; thanks. Note the talibon-like bindning block.

11th April 2005, 07:04 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Freddy. The measures are quite the same of your sword: the length of the blade + the handle is 42.5 cm, the maximum width of the blade 2 cm. The scabbard is in length 38 cm.