machetes,, regional styles..

RSWORD · 6th September 2008, 02:32 AM

This should provide a good start for you.

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/index.html

ausjulius · 6th September 2008, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

This should provide a good start for you.

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/index.html

hahar,, ah yes i have already read this some time back.

has anyone got any drawings or pictures of the mentioned "wacking sticks" used by the natives.. and what area is this refering to brazil and the south or mexico and the central america??

does anyone know who was the first firm to commercialy produce machetes?

i woudl think some firm in spain but i guess maybe, more likely england due to the advancement in hot rolling there in the 18th centuray..

has anyone and information on regional types and historical regional types , that maybe are no longer common??

ive seen quite some variation in the handles of the machetes on mexican machetes alone.. some being quite fancy with several spurs or a lather large hook on the pommel sometimes almost shaped like a z, and it seems these are from specific regions,,
some have partial tangs some full , some tapered.. ect ect
ive notices also brazil and the caribbein winding the grip with wire is popular..
also is having a carved pommel on these hidden tang machetes.. normaly a dog s head or a boot or the head ot a rooster or such is common,

also i have noticed sheath style is quite different in each area,, there seems to be quite a few way that the sheaths belt loop is produced,, each more common in one specific area..

machetes rely facinate me as they are a "new" style of ethnographic knife .. that had not exisisted until recently .. but now is so wiedspread around the world..

anyone got any good collection with information about the reginonal popularity of specific models ??

Berkley · 6th September 2008, 04:50 AM

While not really responsive to your question, you might find this of interest regarding African machetes.
I acquired this well-used Masai seme some time back, and upon examination it was obvious that it started life as a plastic-handled factory-made machete. In tracking down the manufacturer's mark, I discovered that a principal source of contemporay machete production is China, which was the original source for my creatively recycled machete.

ausjulius · 6th September 2008, 05:42 AM

haha interesting , yes "diamond brand" the make copies of martindales products, hoes and machetes ect ect,, ive found their machetes normaly much harder than martindales and cannot be sharpened with a file..
normaly stiffer also... i remember when i lives in australia diamond brand goloks were common , . the quality varied greatly ,, but actualy several i owned were better than the original :O others were much worse..

it is interesting that there is not a firm producing masi knives anymore.. ive seen old english made seme blades.. but all ive seen were forged blades...

interesting machete

Gonzalo G · 7th September 2008, 09:52 AM

I find many questionable statements in that article. From the concept of the machete, to the history of it´s development in America and it´s types. The machete, as we actually know it, is the result of an evolution which begins in Spain, and not with the whacking sticks of aboriginal americans. This evolution implies many diverse forms, geometries and measures, some of which are reflected on the actual machetes. The machete has been, historically, a tool and a weapon, even today, no matter the intentions of their actual manofacturers. We produce and use still today in Mexico, machetes with hanguards and elaboratedly hilts with eagle pommels decorated with silver, and blades with etched inscriptions tipical of the motos used on the military swords. And people use them as a weapon.

Tough the machete have been progressively used more as a tool than as a weapon, since it´s origins and difussion throught the spanish army, and latter throught the spanish settlers, the machetes were used by the commoneers to make war or to work on the fields in agricultural and cattle raising activities. The spanish army, by Royal Order of october 5th, 1841, adopted the machete for all the infantry and provincial militias, since the saber "...in the present cirumstances and the actual state in the art of the war, it is a a bothersome and impeding weapon on the march and manoeuvres, useless on encampments and combats". (Free traslation form a quote made by José Luis Calvó, a distinguished researcher on this subject, on his article "Sables, Espadas y Machetes Distintivo de Clases de a Pié I", page 27). In other words, the machete was adopted as the sidearm of the infantry, artillery and engineer corps since then.

This, conducted to the development of some colonial versions of the military machete on Cuba and the Phillipines, and influenced the versions of this weapon in Mexico, thought independent from Spain since 1821. The very war of independence of Mexico, and latter the civil wars and the wars made against foreign interventionist countries, were made with the massive use of the machete as a sidearm. It can be said that agicultural implements were used in all the world to make wars, but as I stated, the machete was also specifically a weapon, and it took several military types which still survive. The traditional machete was not the actual laminated thin blade massively produced, but has a tapered blade aproximately 5mm thick at their beginning, and has the profile of a wedge. Examples survive on mexican museums.

The actual machete is the result of the industrialized and cheap version of it, designed by countries foreign to this tradition, in order to satisfy the needs of the markets of the less industrialized countries. Hardly an "ethnic" edged tool, or just as ethnic, as the bowies made for the United States on the Sheffield factories in England in the 19th Century, with which the machete shares the fact of being a tool and a weapon. Is as ethnic, as the malayan-indonesian edged weapons made by Valiant Co. And though many of this less indutrialized countries actually make the same cheap models, their direct origin is found in Collins, the Solingen factories and other manofacturers in Europe and the United States. Another thing is to study the traditional old machete.
My best regards

Gonzalo

ausjulius · 7th September 2008, 10:04 AM

indeed this is true.
as the older types of machete are all more weapon than tool like ,, it is only the middle of the 19th centuary when the agriculturial type seem to become more and more the common form

is there still any machete production being undertaken on any scale in mexico?? or any makers that are producing high quality machetes by hand?

also how common are the regional styles of machete still in mexico?
and what sort of regional knives are still used?

Gonzalo G · 7th September 2008, 10:55 AM

Strange, for being in Dagestan, you have much information on the machete, Ausjulius. I have the same interest on the weapons from your zone.

Yes, we have very characteristc machetes on the diverse areas. Each area has their special needs. On the contray of what is said in the formentioned article, the machete cañero is big and with a wider point, just to cut several sugar canes in one blow. In Guerrero state is used a diffrent humped machete, named "Acapulqueño", and also a slender, thin and flexible machete with a minimun hilt, that can be used around the waist. We have long and slender models to work on the southeast Mexico, and very short models on the north. In Oaxaca area are produced machetes in the traditional way, if they are ordered, with handguards, silver inlay, eagle pommels, tapered blade with etchings. The military machete has been assimilated partially to the charrería, the rural tradition associated with cattle raising in the center área of the country, from wich the trooper cavalryman was recruited, apart from the cowboys from the north Mexico, associated with the Coahuila-Texas tradition and also cattle raisers, though they used the lance and latter the carabine as a primary weapons. Most commonly, the charros uses crossguards on the machetes. Still today, many people carries on the saddle a big machete as a weapon and as a tool.
My best regards

Gonzalo

6th September 2008, 04:50 AM	#3
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	While not really responsive to your question, you might find this of interest regarding African machetes. I acquired this well-used Masai seme some time back, and upon examination it was obvious that it started life as a plastic-handled factory-made machete. In tracking down the manufacturer's mark, I discovered that a principal source of contemporay machete production is China, which was the original source for my creatively recycled machete. Attached Images

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6th September 2008, 02:32 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	This should provide a good start for you. http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/index.html

6th September 2008, 05:42 AM	#4
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 460	haha interesting , yes "diamond brand" the make copies of martindales products, hoes and machetes ect ect,, ive found their machetes normaly much harder than martindales and cannot be sharpened with a file.. normaly stiffer also... i remember when i lives in australia diamond brand goloks were common , . the quality varied greatly ,, but actualy several i owned were better than the original :O others were much worse.. it is interesting that there is not a firm producing masi knives anymore.. ive seen old english made seme blades.. but all ive seen were forged blades... interesting machete

7th September 2008, 09:52 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I find many questionable statements in that article. From the concept of the machete, to the history of it´s development in America and it´s types. The machete, as we actually know it, is the result of an evolution which begins in Spain, and not with the whacking sticks of aboriginal americans. This evolution implies many diverse forms, geometries and measures, some of which are reflected on the actual machetes. The machete has been, historically, a tool and a weapon, even today, no matter the intentions of their actual manofacturers. We produce and use still today in Mexico, machetes with hanguards and elaboratedly hilts with eagle pommels decorated with silver, and blades with etched inscriptions tipical of the motos used on the military swords. And people use them as a weapon. Tough the machete have been progressively used more as a tool than as a weapon, since it´s origins and difussion throught the spanish army, and latter throught the spanish settlers, the machetes were used by the commoneers to make war or to work on the fields in agricultural and cattle raising activities. The spanish army, by Royal Order of october 5th, 1841, adopted the machete for all the infantry and provincial militias, since the saber "...in the present cirumstances and the actual state in the art of the war, it is a a bothersome and impeding weapon on the march and manoeuvres, useless on encampments and combats". (Free traslation form a quote made by José Luis Calvó, a distinguished researcher on this subject, on his article "Sables, Espadas y Machetes Distintivo de Clases de a Pié I", page 27). In other words, the machete was adopted as the sidearm of the infantry, artillery and engineer corps since then. This, conducted to the development of some colonial versions of the military machete on Cuba and the Phillipines, and influenced the versions of this weapon in Mexico, thought independent from Spain since 1821. The very war of independence of Mexico, and latter the civil wars and the wars made against foreign interventionist countries, were made with the massive use of the machete as a sidearm. It can be said that agicultural implements were used in all the world to make wars, but as I stated, the machete was also specifically a weapon, and it took several military types which still survive. The traditional machete was not the actual laminated thin blade massively produced, but has a tapered blade aproximately 5mm thick at their beginning, and has the profile of a wedge. Examples survive on mexican museums. The actual machete is the result of the industrialized and cheap version of it, designed by countries foreign to this tradition, in order to satisfy the needs of the markets of the less industrialized countries. Hardly an "ethnic" edged tool, or just as ethnic, as the bowies made for the United States on the Sheffield factories in England in the 19th Century, with which the machete shares the fact of being a tool and a weapon. Is as ethnic, as the malayan-indonesian edged weapons made by Valiant Co. And though many of this less indutrialized countries actually make the same cheap models, their direct origin is found in Collins, the Solingen factories and other manofacturers in Europe and the United States. Another thing is to study the traditional old machete. My best regards Gonzalo

7th September 2008, 10:04 AM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 460	indeed this is true. as the older types of machete are all more weapon than tool like ,, it is only the middle of the 19th centuary when the agriculturial type seem to become more and more the common form is there still any machete production being undertaken on any scale in mexico?? or any makers that are producing high quality machetes by hand? also how common are the regional styles of machete still in mexico? and what sort of regional knives are still used?

7th September 2008, 10:55 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Strange, for being in Dagestan, you have much information on the machete, Ausjulius. I have the same interest on the weapons from your zone. Yes, we have very characteristc machetes on the diverse areas. Each area has their special needs. On the contray of what is said in the formentioned article, the machete cañero is big and with a wider point, just to cut several sugar canes in one blow. In Guerrero state is used a diffrent humped machete, named "Acapulqueño", and also a slender, thin and flexible machete with a minimun hilt, that can be used around the waist. We have long and slender models to work on the southeast Mexico, and very short models on the north. In Oaxaca area are produced machetes in the traditional way, if they are ordered, with handguards, silver inlay, eagle pommels, tapered blade with etchings. The military machete has been assimilated partially to the charrería, the rural tradition associated with cattle raising in the center área of the country, from wich the trooper cavalryman was recruited, apart from the cowboys from the north Mexico, associated with the Coahuila-Texas tradition and also cattle raisers, though they used the lance and latter the carabine as a primary weapons. Most commonly, the charros uses crossguards on the machetes. Still today, many people carries on the saddle a big machete as a weapon and as a tool. My best regards Gonzalo