Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:38 PM

I am not into bragging about my background. I challenge you to find a maranao and find out the truth yourself.

now tell me what is punal or punyal. Have you measured that guy's sword using his fist? is that a knife to you? How many fists can you make along the knife?
You can use fist because he was holding his sword. four or five fists? is that the length of punal? punal means knife. It's not a name of a blade.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:41 PM

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

RhysMichael · 29th June 2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

RhysMichael · 29th June 2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

I know what punal/puyal means. I said my experience was limited but I am a student of Pananandata. The blade, sheath and handle form in every book I have seen ( From Stone to Cato) for Punal matches what David says. That is not to say there may not be other names for it in other dialects. I have stuggled with that on Aceh weapons, with all the ethnic groups lliving there the same weapon may be called a dozen different things depending on who you ask. Its the same weapon. I have seen a balisong the length of my arm. While not a traditional balisong it was still one.

And as I said above I have been led to believe that even "anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims" have both spanish and portuguese words they commonly use.

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 12:08 AM

can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

RhysMichael · 30th June 2008, 12:13 AM

Perhaps as with the large balisong( that was made for a window display) the larger punal developed more as a display piece than a use piece. Even if that is not the case I have also seen "Bowie Knives" nearly that large. So again what is one mans big knife may be anothers short sword.

David · 30th June 2008, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

No need to link to the same site again. We can all see what the guy in yellow is holding. A serpentine blade is not a requirement for a kris BTW. No one is saying that. Though i would be willing to bet that the blade in that guy's sheath is in fact wavy. But let me say this again...and please, let it sink in. If it doesn't have an asymmetrical blade with a gonjo feature (separate or otherwise), it...is NOT...a kris. Clearly the width of the sheath on the blades you link to do NOT provide enough space for this feature. Therefore, these are NOT kris. What about this don't you understand?

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:49 PM

by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me.

do you know what ethnographic means?

do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris?

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

David · 30th June 2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

I know what ethnographic means my dear, believe me.
I know that you have been banned from quite a few other forums in your day, but having alternative ideas isn't part of our criteria for doing so. I am actually quite enjoying your presence here. That doesn't mean i have to agree with you. In the end your credibity will be established or not. Guess which i'm betting on.

RhysMichael · 30th June 2008, 12:23 AM

An example of a large confederate D guard "bowie knife" as an example of what I was speaking of. Big knife or small sword all depends on who you ask.

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 12:27 AM

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

David · 30th June 2008, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form.

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 12:35 AM

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

David · 29th June 2008, 11:51 PM

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.

All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.

All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

David · 30th June 2008, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

Please do not turn this into a racial argument because i will not stand for that. No one here has made any comment disparaging any part of Moro culture. If you do not want to call these longer knives/short swords punal, that is fine with me. Pick your name. As i stated, some call them gugongs. What they are truly not, however, are kris, which i will once more, for the truly dense among us, repeat, must have an asymmetrical blade and some sort of gonjo (separate or intrinsic) to qualify. If you do not know what a kris is, please don't bother me with you questions about what a punal is.

30th June 2008, 12:23 AM	#11
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	An example of a large confederate D guard "bowie knife" as an example of what I was speaking of. Big knife or small sword all depends on who you ask. Attached Images

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29th June 2008, 11:38 PM	#1
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	I am not into bragging about my background. I challenge you to find a maranao and find out the truth yourself. now tell me what is punal or punyal. Have you measured that guy's sword using his fist? is that a knife to you? How many fists can you make along the knife? You can use fist because he was holding his sword. four or five fists? is that the length of punal? punal means knife. It's not a name of a blade.

29th June 2008, 11:41 PM	#2
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

30th June 2008, 12:08 AM	#6
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

30th June 2008, 12:13 AM	#7
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Perhaps as with the large balisong( that was made for a window display) the larger punal developed more as a display piece than a use piece. Even if that is not the case I have also seen "Bowie Knives" nearly that large. So again what is one mans big knife may be anothers short sword.

29th June 2008, 11:49 PM	#9
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me. do you know what ethnographic means? do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris? ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me. Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

30th June 2008, 12:27 AM	#12
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	here's another example why not all krises are the same.

30th June 2008, 12:35 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person. I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book. I have followed this discussion from its commencement. It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words. I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge. When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order. My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old. But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table. Ms Baganing also has her knowledge. Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to. At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here. Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced. Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

29th June 2008, 11:51 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me. All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer, No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.