Keris Found From A shipwreck

empu kumis · 25th March 2005, 11:18 PM

Hello Kerislovers,

its nice to see an old dateable keris but the seawater doen`t left much. From our old collections of the so called curiosity chambers of the nobles of good old Europe we have keris blades and sheaths in almost new condition from the 17th century. A must therfore is the book of:

Karsten Sejr Jensen 1998 Den Indonesiske kris - et symbolladet vaben

written in Danish ISSN 0108-707X. The evidence of their age are the old records of aquisition. On page 113 and 119 there are identical rattan binding of the sheath. The practice of rattan binding of goloks is still used inTorajaland. But I don`t believe this kerisses coming from Sulawesi. We just dont know how the Javanese kerisses before the 17th cent. has been looking. The blades are much better then the blades from Sulawesi or Sumatera and I`m almost sure they came from Java. The most interresting collection is in Dresden, Germany, Stockholm, Sweden, the Medici collection in Italy, Ethnographical Museum and in the Deutsch Orden Museum in Vienna, Austria. Al together I guess in Europe we have about 60 pieces from the 17th and 18th century and all well preserved. We have tried to find out about kerisses in Portugal but failed. But I know there are some. Its time for the proffesionals to make a real research.

nechesh · 26th March 2005, 12:45 AM

Fearn, if you look at the very bottom of the initial post you will see that the photos were not added for a couple of hours after the first posting. The first respondents did not, indeed, see the pics before posting. I think we all see the keris outline in the x-rays now.

Bill, a keris sundang is a very particular type of keris and i don't think this is one. While the linked article states they believe the ship was Portuguese, i see no mention of a PI origin there. Where are you getting this reference from?

Empu Kumis makes a good point that we don't really know exactly what the dress on really early keris looked liked. Rattan wrap wrongko may have been all the rage in Jawa at the time.
Also, i'm not sure finding this blade aboard is necessarily evidence that a Malay salior was onboard. This keris could very well have been collected by a Portuguese salior as a keepsake or prize.

Bill · 26th March 2005, 02:19 AM

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=132029 think this must be the same wreck, several news items have been released about it. Malays did sail on the European ships, both as pilots & translators. Many were "slaved" when needed, but doubt that they would be allowed a keris. Is the drawing from an X-ray? Would it not be better to cut the sheath in half & see what could be preserved of the blade or is it just going to crumble. Length of the sheath would be nice.

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25th March 2005, 11:18 PM	#1
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Hello Kerislovers, its nice to see an old dateable keris but the seawater doen`t left much. From our old collections of the so called curiosity chambers of the nobles of good old Europe we have keris blades and sheaths in almost new condition from the 17th century. A must therfore is the book of: Karsten Sejr Jensen 1998 Den Indonesiske kris - et symbolladet vaben written in Danish ISSN 0108-707X. The evidence of their age are the old records of aquisition. On page 113 and 119 there are identical rattan binding of the sheath. The practice of rattan binding of goloks is still used inTorajaland. But I don`t believe this kerisses coming from Sulawesi. We just dont know how the Javanese kerisses before the 17th cent. has been looking. The blades are much better then the blades from Sulawesi or Sumatera and I`m almost sure they came from Java. The most interresting collection is in Dresden, Germany, Stockholm, Sweden, the Medici collection in Italy, Ethnographical Museum and in the Deutsch Orden Museum in Vienna, Austria. Al together I guess in Europe we have about 60 pieces from the 17th and 18th century and all well preserved. We have tried to find out about kerisses in Portugal but failed. But I know there are some. Its time for the proffesionals to make a real research.

26th March 2005, 12:45 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Fearn, if you look at the very bottom of the initial post you will see that the photos were not added for a couple of hours after the first posting. The first respondents did not, indeed, see the pics before posting. I think we all see the keris outline in the x-rays now. Bill, a keris sundang is a very particular type of keris and i don't think this is one. While the linked article states they believe the ship was Portuguese, i see no mention of a PI origin there. Where are you getting this reference from? Empu Kumis makes a good point that we don't really know exactly what the dress on really early keris looked liked. Rattan wrap wrongko may have been all the rage in Jawa at the time. Also, i'm not sure finding this blade aboard is necessarily evidence that a Malay salior was onboard. This keris could very well have been collected by a Portuguese salior as a keepsake or prize.

26th March 2005, 02:19 AM	#3
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=132029 think this must be the same wreck, several news items have been released about it. Malays did sail on the European ships, both as pilots & translators. Many were "slaved" when needed, but doubt that they would be allowed a keris. Is the drawing from an X-ray? Would it not be better to cut the sheath in half & see what could be preserved of the blade or is it just going to crumble. Length of the sheath would be nice.