Elephant Sword

[fearn]

Hi Bill,

Not that I'm an experienced collector, but I did get into an EBay spitting contest with a guy who sold me some stuff. Basically, it was a swivel for a nunchaku, and it never arrived. Eventually part of the flimsy envelope he mailed it in showed up, and it was pretty obvious why I never received the swivel. We both left negative comments for each other, and EBay's attempt to mediate ended when I pointed out that if the seller had simply charged more for shipping and sent the item in a box, the problem would never have occurred. He shut up too.

That said, I think there's an important point here. When getting something in shipping, 1) check the box for damage (not a bad idea to photograph it unopened). 2) open it carefully (perhaps more photos?). If the item is in pieces inside an undamaged box, then you can make a good case for misrepresentation. If the box is trashed along with the item inside, then the seller is at most responsible for bad choices in packaging and the shipping method, not for damage to the item itself.

While I hesitate to take the seller's side even partially, it is possible that the weapon did get trashed in shipment. When you have a long flimsy blade and heavy handle, it's possible to break it through rough handling. That doesn't exempt him from criticism (especially about the weapon's represented qualities), but I'm just as apt to suspect our postal service.

[Totally off-topic, but I recently moved 40 miles from my previous address. Not a problem, right? I'm still trying to get the mail forwarded, and yesterday I found out that they're still shipping some mail to my old address. This is fascinating, given that I'm also getting magazines at my new address, meaning that the address change got entered into their computer system, but was not implemented on the ground. That's the US postal service for you.]

F

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to digress from the subject matter on ebay seller issues and address the elephant sword topic which heads this thread.

I am inclined to agree with Andrew concerning the likely purpose of this piece which does seem like a processional or bearing type weapon, and in that sense may have some degree of authenticity. It is difficult to really tell how effectively such ceremonial weapons may have been fashioned for non combat purposes, and how skilled the furbisher might have been.

It seems that psychological warfare has often been key in the creation of many weapons that have had questionable application for actual combat use. The addition of the hooks on this blade, the use of bone (or tusk as it were) in adding to the formidable appearance of this interesting piece does indeed carry a degree of such possibility.

As David has linked that thread from last January, it was interesting to review some material I had found that suggests there were indeed instances of edged weapons applied to the trunk and tusks of elephants in warfare. In "By my Sword and Shield" (E.Jaiwent Paul, p.106) it is noted that elephant tusks were tipped with metal points.
In an excellent article by Thom Richardson and Donna Stevens in Royal Armouries Yearbook (Vol.I 1996, pp.101-103), "The Elephant Armour", it is noted that elephants were armed with spears and knives at the Battle of Panipat (1556). Other instances are also noted and reference is made to the example of a pair of these tusk swords from Clives collection (from Powis Castle) now in the holdings at Leeds. The only others are from a Mysore arsenal and were sold by Sothebys in 1991.

While I am unsure of the use of elephants in warfare in SE Asia, it would seem possible that there was awareness of the concept from India. In any case, it would certainly be worthy of further research, while recognizing a degree of plausibility in the possible use of this piece. I am not sure that the use of 'wallhanger' in the description was intended to dismiss the authenticity of the weapon, but suggesting its potential for display in a grouping of weapons from these regions.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

[ariel]

When I look at the 3rd from the bottom picture in the original listing ( the one copied by Ferguson), I am struck by the shadow under the blade: one can " see through" the blade/tang.
Also, look at the strained position of the thumb: tries to keep the blade in place?

I think it was broken before mailing.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

Very key perspective Fearn, and it is very true, it is not commonly known that the elephant is an entirely amazing animal, extremely sensitive and they indeed have ways of communicating far beyond human understanding. I too have followed this topic for some time, and there was a wonderful book written on this, I wish I had the title. Violence and combat indeed have deeply traumatic effect on both animals and humans, as I do know personally.
It is the unfortunate nature of our field of study that the weapons have a inherently dark purpose, and I prefer to focus on them as objectively as possible, as historic artifacts that are often imbued with symbolism and traditions of thier cultures.

I think your point about giving these tremendously powerful animals weapons is well placed, and I have to believe that in many cases, the forces who did this likely deeply regretted it.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

I thought it a good idea to look at this from a different ‘angle’….to see if it was ‘possible’ for an Elephant to wield such a sword with it’s trunk. All references I can find say ‘yes’ the trunk is a very complex organ and utilizing small sticks (held in the trunk) to itch themselves or to remove parasites is common ‘wild behaviour’.


“….It is fascinating to watch one of them pick up a stick with its trunk and use it to itch themselves. The dexterity they have with both their trunks and their feet is amazing….”

Also….

“….The nineteenth-century French anatomist Georges Cuvier estimated the number of muscles controlling the movements of the trunk at 40,000, a figure that was long accepted. By dissecting trunks, my colleagues and I have recently been able to investigate the workings of these organs, down to the microscopic level. We believe that what Cuvier called "muscles" are actually small subunits of muscles, or muscle fascicles. We painstakingly counted the tiny fascicles on carefully sectioned regions of an Asian elephant's trunk and arrived at an estimate of about 150,000 (148,198, to be exact) muscle fascicles for the entire trunk…..”



An interesting reference to the Elephant’s intelligence…
http://www.natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic5/elephant.htm

Also to illustrate the dexterity and intelligence of elephants…… http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=69


I am beginning to think that…

1. The painting ‘evidence’ suggests that there is possible ceremonial / religious symbolism associated with an Elephant brandishing a sword.

2. An Elephant could indeed hold such a sword with its trunk, however, I personally feel that if a ‘battle’ version was successful, they would be much more common.

3. I also feel that a ‘Battle Elephant’ during conflict would have enough to do, without having to coordinate its eyes and trunk to use the sword effectively. The Tusk type sword extensions and ‘spikes’ strapped to the trunk utilized the ‘natural’ attacking behaviour of the animal, the attached ‘weapons’ making it more efficient.


If there is definite evidence of real age with this ‘sword’ , perhaps it is indeed ceremonial or processional or symbolic.

Regards David.

[Bill M]

In speaking of using their trunks, I had a friend in the Marines who was stationed somewhere there were wild elephants. He said they were incredibly quiet when moving through heavy brush and jungle.

But that when they attacked, they sometimes pulled up a small tree with a trunk about 3 or 4 inches in diameter with their trunk and they would beat the ground with it when they charged.

A frightening aspect!

[olikara]

I visited Jaipur and Udaipur Palaces in Rajasthan, India in the early 80's. I can distinctly remember Rajput miniatures contemporary to the 17, 18 Centuries in the palace galleries, depicting elephants holding edged weapons in their trunks.

It is also accepted that at battle of Haldighati on June 18, 1576, the Rajput Chief Rana Pratap's beloved horse 'Chetak' had it's leg slashed by a sword attached to a rampaging Mogul elephant. This is common knowledge here.

I have absolutely no doubt at all, that War elephants in India carried edged weapons in their trunks, may not be all of them but certainly many of them.