Kocet-Kocetan hilt form

Marcokeris · 1st February 2008, 01:51 PM

For more confusion: Hamzuri (an indonesian person!) in his keris' books says : horse

Alam Shah · 1st February 2008, 02:20 PM

To add to the confusion, Suhartono Rahardjo's, in his book... mentioned;

Bali Kocet-kocetan or Kusia, kepompong shape style. In the olden days, this hilt type is reserved for priests or religious leader. It resembles a horse head with the body of "kepompong (?)"...

Does anyone knows what is "Kusia" and what is "kepompong"?

Alam Shah · 1st February 2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

For more confusion: Hamzuri (an indonesian person!) in his keris' books says : horse

Yup... you're referring to "Petunjuk Singkat tentang Keris", Fig 9... right?

Opps! also appear in Hamzuri, "Keris" pg 32.

Michel · 1st February 2008, 04:07 PM

If I take Kerner's book : Keris-Griffe, Museum Rietberg Zürich 1996, (this book has only 73 pages and the last photo is N° 70) I cannot find your reference Alam Shah. But my copy of Kerner's book shows on page 34 and 35 two kocet-kocetan handles of Bali and kerners's legend precise on the page 34: a silver handle, of modern technology, with a shape reserved for Brahman. The kocet-kocetan would have a horse head and 6 legs but they are stylized. For me clearly an insect.
On page 35 it is a golden and ebony kocet-kocetan, also an insect, horse head and 4 legs (?). legend say the Balinese handle represent the shape of a beetle, a very old shape initially reserved for the Brahman and which had very probably a deeper mythological content.
My own kocet-kocetan is coming from Bali and when shown to Gaspar de Marval (quite knowledgeable author of "Ukiran a classification of keris handles") was immediately identified as an insect, was named kocetkocetan and was coming from Bali.
Regards
Michel

Alam Shah · 1st February 2008, 04:25 PM

Michel,
I was referring to the other Kerner's book, "Keris-Griffe - Aus Museen Und Privatsammlungen".

Btw, nice pictures... (this is the one, that looks beetle-like).

tunggulametung · 1st February 2008, 04:31 PM

Kocetkocetan is a name of a bug in Balinese (I attached a picture from internet). I ask my Balinese friend about kurisi and kusia, both have no meaning to him. Internet search result: Kusia is a name of a banjar in Sawan, Buleleng

In Minang, both kurisi and kusia will have a meaning, kurisi=kursi=chair, kusia=kusir=horse courier

Kepompong is cocoon.

That Kocet is equal to Batara Karpa is the most interesting part....I'll try to dig on this one...

Alam Shah · 1st February 2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Kocetkocetan is a name of a bug in Balinese (I attached a picture from internet).

This makes sense... I thought so, just to confirm. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

I ask my Balinese friend about kurisi and kusia, both have no meaning to him. Internet search result: Kusia is a name of a banjar in Sawan, Buleleng

In Minang, both kurisi and kusia will have a meaning, kurisi=kursi=chair, kusia=kusir=horse courier

Kepompong is cocoon.

As for 'kurisi', horse courier sound more meaningful(?), need to explore...
Ah! cocoon. Thanks again for your help... really appreciate it.

Marcokeris · 2nd February 2008, 01:05 PM

Michel
i would like to know when the name:"kocetkocetan" rise for the first time.
Maybe in the mr. Marval's book "ukiran"? (

perhaps this book was written with the collaboration of Mr. M. Kerner: in the book there are a lot of mr. MK's hits.)
....it would be nice to have mr. Marval or mr. Kerner in the forum...

Marco

Mick · 2nd February 2008, 02:56 PM

Without getting into a deep meanings for this grip form, it has always looked to me to be a depiction of a Luna Moth (or a local similar large moth) just after it has left the cocoon and is waiting for its wings to dry before it can fly away.

VVV · 2nd February 2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Michel
i would like to know when the name:"kocetkocetan" rise for the first time.
Maybe in the mr. Marval's book "ukiran"? (

perhaps this book was written with the collaboration of Mr. M. Kerner: in the book there are a lot of mr. MK's hits.)
....it would be nice to have mr. Marval or mr. Kerner in the forum...

Marco

Marco,

Already in Jasper & Pirngadie's classic book De inlandsche kunstnijverheid in Nederlandsch Indie from 1912 is "kotjèt-kotjèttan" mentioned (fig. 325).

Michael

Michel · 2nd February 2008, 03:16 PM

Yes Marco,
Its a long time I wish Gaspar de Marval would join the forum as he has a very extensive knowledge of the kris world and of many aspects of the Indonesian culture but unfortunately I do not think he works with a computer and to my knowledge he does not have any experience with Internet. Now my information are a bit old, as I think that the last time I saw him was 3 years ago !
In all his writings related to kris, the pictures I have found were of the same origin and the handle Kocekocetan was identified as an insect and coming from Bali. The first one being : le kris, Java et Bali in the Gazette des Armes of June 1976.Ukiran is dated from May 1993 and Le Monde du kris is from 1997.
Was Ukiran written with Martin Kerner ? I have no idea but I could ask !
I am sorry not being able to bring more valid information on Kocetkocetan origin and time of appearance but I think that what I should do is to write to Gaspar de Marval and try to convince him to join the forum ! It may take some time but one never knows, I may succeed !
Regards
Michel

1st February 2008, 04:07 PM	#4
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Kocet-Kocetan If I take Kerner's book : Keris-Griffe, Museum Rietberg Zürich 1996, (this book has only 73 pages and the last photo is N° 70) I cannot find your reference Alam Shah. But my copy of Kerner's book shows on page 34 and 35 two kocet-kocetan handles of Bali and kerners's legend precise on the page 34: a silver handle, of modern technology, with a shape reserved for Brahman. The kocet-kocetan would have a horse head and 6 legs but they are stylized. For me clearly an insect. On page 35 it is a golden and ebony kocet-kocetan, also an insect, horse head and 4 legs (?). legend say the Balinese handle represent the shape of a beetle, a very old shape initially reserved for the Brahman and which had very probably a deeper mythological content. My own kocet-kocetan is coming from Bali and when shown to Gaspar de Marval (quite knowledgeable author of "Ukiran a classification of keris handles") was immediately identified as an insect, was named kocetkocetan and was coming from Bali. Regards Michel Attached Images

1st February 2008, 04:25 PM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Michel, I was referring to the other Kerner's book, "Keris-Griffe - Aus Museen Und Privatsammlungen". Btw, nice pictures... (this is the one, that looks beetle-like). Last edited by Alam Shah; 2nd February 2008 at 04:14 PM. Reason: add pic comment.

1st February 2008, 04:31 PM	#6
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Kocetkocetan is a name of a bug in Balinese (I attached a picture from internet). I ask my Balinese friend about kurisi and kusia, both have no meaning to him. Internet search result: Kusia is a name of a banjar in Sawan, Buleleng In Minang, both kurisi and kusia will have a meaning, kurisi=kursi=chair, kusia=kusir=horse courier Kepompong is cocoon. That Kocet is equal to Batara Karpa is the most interesting part....I'll try to dig on this one... Attached Images

2nd February 2008, 03:16 PM	#11
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Kocetkocetan Yes Marco, Its a long time I wish Gaspar de Marval would join the forum as he has a very extensive knowledge of the kris world and of many aspects of the Indonesian culture but unfortunately I do not think he works with a computer and to my knowledge he does not have any experience with Internet. Now my information are a bit old, as I think that the last time I saw him was 3 years ago ! In all his writings related to kris, the pictures I have found were of the same origin and the handle Kocekocetan was identified as an insect and coming from Bali. The first one being : le kris, Java et Bali in the Gazette des Armes of June 1976.Ukiran is dated from May 1993 and Le Monde du kris is from 1997. Was Ukiran written with Martin Kerner ? I have no idea but I could ask ! I am sorry not being able to bring more valid information on Kocetkocetan origin and time of appearance but I think that what I should do is to write to Gaspar de Marval and try to convince him to join the forum ! It may take some time but one never knows, I may succeed ! Regards Michel

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1st February 2008, 01:51 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	For more confusion: Hamzuri (an indonesian person!) in his keris' books says : horse

1st February 2008, 02:20 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	To add to the confusion, Suhartono Rahardjo's, in his book... mentioned; Bali Kocet-kocetan or Kusia, kepompong shape style. In the olden days, this hilt type is reserved for priests or religious leader. It resembles a horse head with the body of "kepompong (?)"... Does anyone knows what is "Kusia" and what is "kepompong"?

2nd February 2008, 01:05 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Michel i would like to know when the name:"kocetkocetan" rise for the first time. Maybe in the mr. Marval's book "ukiran"? ( perhaps this book was written with the collaboration of Mr. M. Kerner: in the book there are a lot of mr. MK's hits.) ....it would be nice to have mr. Marval or mr. Kerner in the forum... Marco

2nd February 2008, 02:56 PM	#9
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Without getting into a deep meanings for this grip form, it has always looked to me to be a depiction of a Luna Moth (or a local similar large moth) just after it has left the cocoon and is waiting for its wings to dry before it can fly away.