black sea yataghan

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 09:30 PM

Hi Radleigh,
I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations.

I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence.
Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 21st January 2008, 10:02 PM

Gentlemen,

I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan?

The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 10:32 PM

Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade.

As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least!

It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 22nd January 2008, 01:29 AM

OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced.
The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others.
My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue.
As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual".
As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages"

BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.

Oriental-Arms · 22nd January 2008, 07:34 AM

Photos attached:

ariel · 22nd January 2008, 02:21 PM

Dear Artzi,
You are a prince!

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2008, 05:16 PM

Artzi, thank you very much for posting this extremely impressive kindjhal, which indeed shows the green leather as seen on the large elliptical scabbards sometimes seen on the BSY scabbards. Please excuse the inadvertant omission of your research into these interesting weapons in my previous comments. Naturally your position on these was indeed well known on these many years before Ariels visit to Istanbul, and I was remiss in not mentioning Lee's notes on the weapon from his own visit to Istanbul.

Ariel, I appreciate your notes bringing this to my attention, as well as your very gentlemanly modesty. My compliments were meant to address more specifically your attention to the continued pursuit of resolution concerning the many questions pertaining to these mysterious swords.
I would like to thank you additionally for the explanation of how the term 'yataghan' came to be applied to these as well. Your attention to detail is very much appreciated, as I wondered the same thing that Jens had noted.

All very best regards,
Jim

22nd January 2008, 07:34 AM	#5
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Photos Photos attached:

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21st January 2008, 09:30 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Hi Radleigh, I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations. I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence. Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions. All the best, Jim

21st January 2008, 10:02 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gentlemen, I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan? The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

21st January 2008, 10:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade. As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least! It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel. All best regards, Jim

22nd January 2008, 01:29 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced. The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others. My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue. As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual". As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages" BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.

22nd January 2008, 02:21 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dear Artzi, You are a prince!

22nd January 2008, 05:16 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Artzi, thank you very much for posting this extremely impressive kindjhal, which indeed shows the green leather as seen on the large elliptical scabbards sometimes seen on the BSY scabbards. Please excuse the inadvertant omission of your research into these interesting weapons in my previous comments. Naturally your position on these was indeed well known on these many years before Ariels visit to Istanbul, and I was remiss in not mentioning Lee's notes on the weapon from his own visit to Istanbul. Ariel, I appreciate your notes bringing this to my attention, as well as your very gentlemanly modesty. My compliments were meant to address more specifically your attention to the continued pursuit of resolution concerning the many questions pertaining to these mysterious swords. I would like to thank you additionally for the explanation of how the term 'yataghan' came to be applied to these as well. Your attention to detail is very much appreciated, as I wondered the same thing that Jens had noted. All very best regards, Jim