AssadUllah Cartouche/Stamp

ALEX · 30th December 2007, 10:00 PM

I appreciate and value your comments Ward. Thank You!
I studied this shamshir for a short while, and it puzzles me. I knew the stamp reads "AA Isfahani", but I'd love to reach an intelligent conclusion as of this stamp's authenticity (not easy, I know)

Most AA stamps I've seen are either obvious fakes, or at least old and made in certain fashion. This one is old, I think, but made in an unusual fashion. The blade is wootz with prolongated wavy pattern. The sword's shape suggests 19 Cent Arabian saif, IMHO. My current take is: "If AA insignia played such an important role of quality and prestige, the AA stamp should represent the same". Perhaps I am being too judgmental, but the lion looks particularly unusual to me.

ward · 30th December 2007, 10:28 PM

Nice sword Alex hilt looks Indian to me
article on shamshirs Oliver Pinchot wrote is probably
best way to answer your questions he went into all that

ward

Rick · 30th December 2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

Nice sword Alex hilt looks Indian to me
article on shamshirs Oliver Pinchot wrote is probably
best way to answer your questions he went into all that

ward

Agreed .
A very well done piece by Oliver .

ALEX · 30th December 2007, 11:02 PM

Ward,
I have the article, and you're right - it's a good reference. And it prooves my point - this particular Lion does NOT resemble the documented ones at all. As I mentioned earlier, almost all old/authentic Lions have certain position, form and style. Just like the one on your recently sold dagger, which is a true CLASSICAL depiction of a lion, and the one which is illustrated in Oliver's article. The Lion on this sword has no references, although I feel it is "old". And it makes it very interesting

Jeff D · 30th December 2007, 11:44 PM

Hi Alex,

Is there any way to get a little more clear image on the signature. It does look like Assaddollah but a Kalbali signature would explain why your Lion looks more canine.

All the Best
Jeff

ariel · 31st December 2007, 01:35 AM

The wootz looks Shams-y to me, ie the lowest denomonation. Fiegel excluded Assadullah's authorship in cases of Kirk Narduban merely "lacking complexity". This one does not look like a work of "the best master ". Also, the markings are somewhat crude. Good blade, no doubt, and I would love to have it, but not to the highest standard.
There are hundreds of blades signed with Assadullah's and Kalbali's names: they commanded higher prices. I think this is one of them.
Again, no insult meant.

ward · 31st December 2007, 01:54 AM

Would be very surprised if thats a dog on the sword instead of a lion. I travel a lot in Muslim countries havent been in Iran so not for sure but dogs are considered unclean in every traditional Islamic country.
Check out dogs in Islam on google theres alot out there on this
Ward

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2007, 04:03 AM

For the benefit of those not familiar with Oliver Pinchot's outstanding article, it is:
"The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", which appeared in "Arms Collecting" (the journal of the Canadian Arms Collecting Society) in Vol. 40, #1 , February, 2002.

This shamshir appears to me to be Indian, with the flueret shape on the langet which seems stylized after the familiar affectation on tulwar langets and as far as I know do not typically appear on Bedouin saifs. This is not to say that this was not produced in India to be exported to Arabia as it is well established that this trade was quite typical.

The clear imitation of the lion in cartouche would of course be intended to suggest the higher quality of the blade and appeal to the Bedouin, whose preference for Persian blades and swords was well known. I agree that the poor representation of the lion would still be intended as such, and the points in the circle around the cartouche associate with solar symbolism on Indian tulwar hilts in the pommel in many of the pommel dishes.

All best regards,
Jim

ALEX · 31st December 2007, 09:13 AM

Thank You Ward, Ariel, Jim, Rick and Jeff for nice discussion and informative opinions. I agree with Ward, I doubt is can be representation of a dog, as dogs would Never appear on anything of spiritual importance in Middle East. Also, I think the name Kalb, or Kalib, even sounding similar to "dog" in Arabic does NOT mean it literally. Jeff, the stamp does read "AssadUllah" and not Kalib Ali, but you've made very interesting point and suggestion. Thank You!
Ariel, I agree with your point, it does look Shamsy, BUT it has a fairly high contrast, and Shams is defined as low contrast wootz. Here is the picture of what Artzi describes as "Fantastic Wootz!", and I agree with him, even though it's wawy without any planar distortions, it is of high contrast, and this does mean quality! I inspected it very closely, and test-etched it, and this sword, when cleaned, will look similar.
Thanks to All!

rand · 31st December 2007, 02:20 PM

Hello Alex,

Interesting sword you have, Could you tell me if there are any occlusians along the spine of the blade? If there are any occlussians, are they filled with silver?

rand

ALEX · 31st December 2007, 02:35 PM

Rand, I think the "fold line" is present. It is not filled. I'll look more closely, and try to capture it on film:-)
Also, I always pay attention to these lines/oclusions, as they indicate that the blade is folded, i.e. forged, and most good wootz blades do have them. Is it the reason you asked:-)

31st December 2007, 09:13 AM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thank You Ward, Ariel, Jim, Rick and Jeff for nice discussion and informative opinions. I agree with Ward, I doubt is can be representation of a dog, as dogs would Never appear on anything of spiritual importance in Middle East. Also, I think the name Kalb, or Kalib, even sounding similar to "dog" in Arabic does NOT mean it literally. Jeff, the stamp does read "AssadUllah" and not Kalib Ali, but you've made very interesting point and suggestion. Thank You! Ariel, I agree with your point, it does look Shamsy, BUT it has a fairly high contrast, and Shams is defined as low contrast wootz. Here is the picture of what Artzi describes as "Fantastic Wootz!", and I agree with him, even though it's wawy without any planar distortions, it is of high contrast, and this does mean quality! I inspected it very closely, and test-etched it, and this sword, when cleaned, will look similar. Thanks to All! Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 31st December 2007 at 09:37 AM.

31st December 2007, 02:20 PM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Blades Spine Hello Alex, Interesting sword you have, Could you tell me if there are any occlusians along the spine of the blade? If there are any occlussians, are they filled with silver? rand

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30th December 2007, 10:00 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I appreciate and value your comments Ward. Thank You! I studied this shamshir for a short while, and it puzzles me. I knew the stamp reads "AA Isfahani", but I'd love to reach an intelligent conclusion as of this stamp's authenticity (not easy, I know) Most AA stamps I've seen are either obvious fakes, or at least old and made in certain fashion. This one is old, I think, but made in an unusual fashion. The blade is wootz with prolongated wavy pattern. The sword's shape suggests 19 Cent Arabian saif, IMHO. My current take is: "If AA insignia played such an important role of quality and prestige, the AA stamp should represent the same". Perhaps I am being too judgmental, but the lion looks particularly unusual to me. Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 30th December 2007 at 10:52 PM.

30th December 2007, 10:28 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Nice sword Alex hilt looks Indian to me article on shamshirs Oliver Pinchot wrote is probably best way to answer your questions he went into all that ward

30th December 2007, 11:02 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ward, I have the article, and you're right - it's a good reference. And it prooves my point - this particular Lion does NOT resemble the documented ones at all. As I mentioned earlier, almost all old/authentic Lions have certain position, form and style. Just like the one on your recently sold dagger, which is a true CLASSICAL depiction of a lion, and the one which is illustrated in Oliver's article. The Lion on this sword has no references, although I feel it is "old". And it makes it very interesting

30th December 2007, 11:44 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Alex, Is there any way to get a little more clear image on the signature. It does look like Assaddollah but a Kalbali signature would explain why your Lion looks more canine. All the Best Jeff

31st December 2007, 01:35 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The wootz looks Shams-y to me, ie the lowest denomonation. Fiegel excluded Assadullah's authorship in cases of Kirk Narduban merely "lacking complexity". This one does not look like a work of "the best master ". Also, the markings are somewhat crude. Good blade, no doubt, and I would love to have it, but not to the highest standard. There are hundreds of blades signed with Assadullah's and Kalbali's names: they commanded higher prices. I think this is one of them. Again, no insult meant.

31st December 2007, 01:54 AM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Would be very surprised if thats a dog on the sword instead of a lion. I travel a lot in Muslim countries havent been in Iran so not for sure but dogs are considered unclean in every traditional Islamic country. Check out dogs in Islam on google theres alot out there on this Ward

31st December 2007, 04:03 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	For the benefit of those not familiar with Oliver Pinchot's outstanding article, it is: "The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", which appeared in "Arms Collecting" (the journal of the Canadian Arms Collecting Society) in Vol. 40, #1 , February, 2002. This shamshir appears to me to be Indian, with the flueret shape on the langet which seems stylized after the familiar affectation on tulwar langets and as far as I know do not typically appear on Bedouin saifs. This is not to say that this was not produced in India to be exported to Arabia as it is well established that this trade was quite typical. The clear imitation of the lion in cartouche would of course be intended to suggest the higher quality of the blade and appeal to the Bedouin, whose preference for Persian blades and swords was well known. I agree that the poor representation of the lion would still be intended as such, and the points in the circle around the cartouche associate with solar symbolism on Indian tulwar hilts in the pommel in many of the pommel dishes. All best regards, Jim

31st December 2007, 02:35 PM	#11
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Rand, I think the "fold line" is present. It is not filled. I'll look more closely, and try to capture it on film:-) Also, I always pay attention to these lines/oclusions, as they indicate that the blade is folded, i.e. forged, and most good wootz blades do have them. Is it the reason you asked:-)